Some believe that God predestines all things. If that is so who killed Abel?

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SavedByTheLord

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Some carry predestination to an absurd length. They believe that God predestines all things which would include all evils and lies.
Of course that is not the God of the Bible.

An example of the absurdities that this logically leads to is the murder of Abel.
If God predestined Cain to kill Abel, then it was really God that did it. Cain was no more than just a weapon in God's hand.

Another example is God predestines all things then God predestines all lies. But Jesus Christ is not the father of lies, Satan is.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - John 8:44

Another example is that the Israelites were at one time deceived into sacrificing their children to devils. But God said that it never came into His mind that they should do that. So God could not have predestined that evil.

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: - Jeremiah 19:5

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. - Jeremiah 32:35

I know that many of the Reformed are into predestination. But there are differences of opinion.
What do you believe? Did God predestine all evils and all lies?
 
Some carry predestination to an absurd length. They believe that God predestines all things which would include all evils and lies.
Of course that is not the God of the Bible.

An example of the absurdities that this logically leads to is the murder of Abel.
If God predestined Cain to kill Abel, then it was really God that did it. Cain was no more than just a weapon in God's hand.

Another example is God predestines all things then God predestines all lies. But Jesus Christ is not the father of lies, Satan is.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - John 8:44

Another example is that the Israelites were at one time deceived into sacrificing their children to devils. But God said that it never came into His mind that they should do that. So God could not have predestined that evil.

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: - Jeremiah 19:5

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. - Jeremiah 32:35

I know that many of the Reformed are into predestination. But there are differences of opinion.
What do you believe? Did God predestine all evils and all lies?
Calvinism 101

he has decreed that [events] are so to happen...all events take place by his sovereign appointment” (Institutes of the Christian Religion, III: xxiii, 6); “God wills all things that come to pass...God desired for man to fall into sin...God created sin.” (R.C. Sproul, Jr., Almighty Over All, p. 54); “God foreordains everything which comes to pass...initiates all things, regulates all things....” (Pink, The Sovereignty of God, p. 240); “All things that happen...come to pass because God ordained them...every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history....He has foreordained everything...the mistake of a typist —even sin....” (Palmer, the five points of calvinism [1], pp. 24, 25, 82, 97-100, 116); “...the counsels and wills of men...move exactly in the course which he [God] has destined...there cannot be a greater absurdity than to hold that anything is done without the ordination of God...men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God...what he has previously decreed...and brings to pass...” (Institutes, I: xvi, 6,8,9; I: xviii, 1).
 
Calvinism 101

he has decreed that [events] are so to happen...all events take place by his sovereign appointment” (Institutes of the Christian Religion, III: xxiii, 6); “God wills all things that come to pass...God desired for man to fall into sin...God created sin.” (R.C. Sproul, Jr., Almighty Over All, p. 54); “God foreordains everything which comes to pass...initiates all things, regulates all things....” (Pink, The Sovereignty of God, p. 240); “All things that happen...come to pass because God ordained them...every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history....He has foreordained everything...the mistake of a typist —even sin....” (Palmer, the five points of calvinism [1], pp. 24, 25, 82, 97-100, 116); “...the counsels and wills of men...move exactly in the course which he [God] has destined...there cannot be a greater absurdity than to hold that anything is done without the ordination of God...men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God...what he has previously decreed...and brings to pass...” (Institutes, I: xvi, 6,8,9; I: xviii, 1).
Wow. That Calvinism 101 goes actually that far.
 
Calvinism 101

he has decreed that [events] are so to happen...all events take place by his sovereign appointment” (Institutes of the Christian Religion, III: xxiii, 6); “God wills all things that come to pass...God desired for man to fall into sin...God created sin.” (R.C. Sproul, Jr., Almighty Over All, p. 54); “God foreordains everything which comes to pass...initiates all things, regulates all things....” (Pink, The Sovereignty of God, p. 240); “All things that happen...come to pass because God ordained them...every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history....He has foreordained everything...the mistake of a typist —even sin....” (Palmer, the five points of calvinism [1], pp. 24, 25, 82, 97-100, 116); “...the counsels and wills of men...move exactly in the course which he [God] has destined...there cannot be a greater absurdity than to hold that anything is done without the ordination of God...men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God...what he has previously decreed...and brings to pass...” (Institutes, I: xvi, 6,8,9; I: xviii, 1).
So Calvin's god predestined all lies. But Jesus Christ said Satan is the father of lies. So Calvin's god is Satan. Who could defend Calvin or even read him

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - John 8:44
 
Better step into this crazy echo-chamber you have going with fltom before it gets out of hand.

Some carry predestination to an absurd length. They believe that God predestines all things which would include all evils and lies.
Of course that is not the God of the Bible.
Does God have infallible foreknowledge?

Proginosko = to know beforehand, foreordain, know (before)

OTHER WORDS FOR ORDAIN​

See synonyms for ordain on Thesaurus.com

Look up here ☝️ Tom
Thesaurus.com disagrees with you.

You'll notice the following list is "related" to ordain, but is not quite ORDAIN.

WORDS RELATED TO ORDAIN​

You'll notice "decree" at the end is related to ordain but is not "to ordain".
 
If God predestined Cain to kill Abel, then it was really God that did it. Cain was no more than just a weapon in God's hand.
There is only 1 way to answer the question "who killed Abel?"
1. Cain

There is only 1 way to answer the question "what killed Abel?"
1. Hatred (enmity) between Cain and Abel killed Abel.

There is also the question of "why was Abel killed?"
1. There is an ultimate biblical answer for this.

There is also the question of "when and how was Abel killed?"
These are irrelevant for biblical discussions.

Although it would be better to say God "foreordained" Cain killing Abel.
Foreordain = prearrange unalterably.
It's still undeniable the "what" that killed Abel was "put" there in Genesis 3 by God
Due to Adam's fall, due to his breaking of the covenant.
 
There is only 1 way to answer the question "who killed Abel?"
1. Cain

There is only 1 way to answer the question "what killed Abel?"
1. Hatred (enmity) between Cain and Abel killed Abel.

There is also the question of "why was Abel killed?"
1. There is an ultimate biblical answer for this.

There is also the question of "when and how was Abel killed?"
These are irrelevant for biblical discussions.

Although it would be better to say God "foreordained" Cain killing Abel.
Foreordain = prearrange unalterably.
It's still undeniable the "what" that killed Abel was "put" there in Genesis 3 by God
Due to Adam's fall, due to his breaking of the covenant.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

You need to explain how Gen 3:15 applies to God decreeing/ordaining all things that come to pass; sounds like a genetic fallacy.
The context is Satan being crushed by Jesus Christ.
 
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

You need to explain how Gen 3:15 applies to God decreeing/ordaining all things that come to pass; sounds like a genetic fallacy.
The context is Satan being crushed by Jesus Christ.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

You need to explain how Gen 3:15 applies to God decreeing/ordaining all things that come to pass; sounds like a genetic fallacy.
The context is Satan being crushed by Jesus Christ.
This would only be necessary with Pelagians.
Someone who denied the fall altogether.
Someone who denied we have (even the slightest) sin nature.

For the rest of us, the context is indisputable.
We all accept our sin nature due to the fall (Adam eating the fruit).

I'm asking a rhetorical question for anyone who doesn't deny the fall.
Is our sin nature a result of Adam's fall?

If it is, then the "what" that killed Abel is self-evident.
 
There is only 1 way to answer the question "who killed Abel?"
1. Cain

There is only 1 way to answer the question "what killed Abel?"
1. Hatred (enmity) between Cain and Abel killed Abel.

There is also the question of "why was Abel killed?"
1. There is an ultimate biblical answer for this.

There is also the question of "when and how was Abel killed?"
These are irrelevant for biblical discussions.

Although it would be better to say God "foreordained" Cain killing Abel.
Foreordain = prearrange unalterably.
It's still undeniable the "what" that killed Abel was "put" there in Genesis 3 by God
Due to Adam's fall, due to his breaking of the covenant.

You mean God prearranged an inevitable domino effect so that Cain wanted to and did kill Abel, ie Cain had no other choice of what could have happened. Correct?
 
Some carry predestination to an absurd length.

Who gets to determine what is or is not "absurd"?
Mormons claim that God being invisible is "absurd".
Mormons also claim that God creating ex nihilo is "absurd".
JW"s claim that Christ being God is "absurd".
Obviously, none of those things is absurd.

By simply claiming by ipse dixit that something is "absurd", you are rejecting Scripture in favour of your own man-made ideas and opinons.

I've studied the Bible for over 33 years.
And it was the BIBLE that convinced me of "predestination", and the theology nicknamed "Calvinism". I didn't get it from "Calvin". I didn't get it from "Luther". I got it from the Bible.

And you are trying to get me (and others) to reject Scripture in favour of your man-made ideas. And we are simply not going to do that. You have a man-made bias AGAINST Calvinism, which precludes you from properly understanding and accepting Scripture for what it says.

They believe that God predestines all things which would include all evils and lies.
Of course that is not the God of the Bible.

And of course that IS the God of the Bible.
And you haven't demonstrated otherwise.
As I pointed out in your other thread, you aren't attacking Calvinism with Scripture, you are attacking it with your opinions and rationalizations. And your opinions and rationalizations don't trump Scripture.

I'm not aware of how familiar you are with Scripture, but back in Genesis, Joseph's brothers hated him. They initially wanted to kill him, but they ended up selling him into slavery in Egypt. That is evil. Yet GOD predestined it:

Gen. 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Hopefully you are aware of the crucivixion of Christ. The Romans and the Jews put the Son of God, an innocent man, to a tortuous death. That is evil. Yet God predestined it:


Acts 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

So yes, Scripture refutes you.

An example of the absurdities that this logically leads to is the murder of Abel.

Again, you are using your man-made rationalizations to reject Scripture.
You are free to reject Scripture, but we refuse to do so.

If God predestined Cain to kill Abel, then it was really God that did it.

Gen. 4:8 Cain spoke to Abel his brother. And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him.

Scripture says that Cain killed Abel.
And so I believe Scripture.
Your error is in assuming (wrongly) that it is an "either/or" situation, was it God or was it Cain? It's both. Just as in Gen. 50:20, Joseph's brothers caused him to be sold into slavery, but God caused it as well, "that many people should be kept alive". Just as in Acts 4:27-28, it was the Jews and Romans who crucified Jesus, but it was God who predestined it, to atone for sin.

You continue to use man-made rationalization as a means of rejecting Scripture.

Cain is not "no more than just a weapon". Cain had a will, and he had his own reasons for murdering his brother. To claim that Cain was "no more than just as weapon" is to deny that man has a will.

Cain was no more than just a weapon in God's hand.

It is interesting that you word it in that way, because that is EXACTLY what the Bible teaches!

Isa. 10:5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of my anger; the staff in their hands is my fury!
6
Against a godless nation I send him, and against the people of my wrath I command him, to take spoil and seize plunder, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7 But he does not so intend, and his heart does not so think; but it is in his heart to destroy, and to cut off nations not a few;

In this passage, Isaiah is explaining how God is wielding Assyria against Israel like a club, and attacking Israel as discipline. This is a good thing. But Assyria's motives are far from good. They don't understand that God is using them, as they have their own evil motives for attacking Israel.

Another example is God predestines all things then God predestines all lies. But Jesus Christ is not the father of lies, Satan is.

Another thing you don't seem to understand is that sin is not independently "evil". It depends on the intention of the actor. "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good". This is describing the same act. The brothers committed sin, but God did not, because He had a good intent. It's like asking if it's a sin to cut someone with a knife. if the man is a mugger, it's a sin. If the man is a surgeon trying to save your life, it's not a sin.\

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - John 8:44

God is not the devil.
God created the devil, in case you weren't aware.
And God uses the devil for His own purposes. For instance, we find in the beginning of Job that the devil is powerless to do ANYTHING without first getting God's permission.

\Another example is that the Israelites were at one time deceived into sacrificing their children to devils. But God said that it never came into His mind that they should do that. So God could not have predestined that evil.

I believe your anti-Calvinist bias is forcing you to misinterpret those passages.

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: - Jeremiah 19:5

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. - Jeremiah 32:35

There are two ways to interpret these passages:

1) "neither did it enter my mind [for them to burn their sons with fire...]"

2) "neither did it enter my mind [to command them to burn their sons with fire...]"

I believe both interpretations are grammatically possible, and your insistence in ARBITRARILY trying to force the first interpretation is simply an indication of your man-made bias against the teachings of Scripture.

I would assert that there are two vaild reasons to reject your interpretation as the proper understanding.

1) First of all, when a word refers back to an antecedent, it is usually the most proximal, and "command" is closer to the referent than "burn their sons".

2) It occurs to me that if you interpret the verse, "neither came it into my mind [for them to burn their sons]", you are denying GOd's omniscience. And as a Christian, I can't accept an interpretation that denies God's omniscience.

I know that many of the Reformed are into predestination.

"Into"?!
We accept it as God's Biblical truth.

But there are differences of opinion.
What do you believe? Did God predestine all evils and all lies?

I believe Scripture.
And since Scripture teaches predestination, and since you haven't presented any Scriptural arguments against predestination, only man-made rationalizations.

But I really have no need to convince you of predestination, since I don't believe the understanding is essential for salvation. But your man-made attacks on predestination seem to conflict with your assertion of salvation by "faith alone". If our salvation is based on "faith alone", then what does it matter what we believe about predestination? It seems that you are ADDING to "faith" as to what is "required" for salvation.
 
So Calvin's god predestined all lies. But Jesus Christ said Satan is the father of lies. So Calvin's god is Satan. Who could defend Calvin or even read him

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - John 8:44
Calvinism is of course not consistent with biblical truth.
 
You mean God prearranged an inevitable domino effect so that Cain wanted to and did kill Abel, ie Cain had no other choice of what could have happened. Correct?
If you add up infallible foreknowledge, with a sin nature from the fall
Yep.
 
Some carry predestination to an absurd length. They believe that God predestines all things which would include all evils and lies.
Of course that is not the God of the Bible.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

So SbtL, do you believe this verse as it is written, or do you turn it on its head, and pretend that it says, "as many as believed were (then) ordained to eternal life"?

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

So SbtL, do you believe this verse as it is written, or do you turn it on its head, and pretend that it says, "You are not of my sheep, because you do not [yet] believe"?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Do you believe this verse, a verse of INABILITY, "no man can come", or do you deny it, and instead believe that "every man can come" because of their imaginary "free will"? And it is important to note that all those who the Father WILL be raised up on the last day.

Speaking of "free will", how is "free will" even possible, given what Scripture teaches? The Bible NOWHERE teaches, "God gave man a free will". (And please don't give me any "freewill offering" passages, since all that refers to is voluntary offerings over and above what is required.)

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: ...
Rom. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
1Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Inability...
Inability...
Inability.

Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

Look VERY closely to this passage.
Being "free" is not absolute, it is relative.
We are either "free from righteousness, and slaves to sin".
Or we are "free from sin, and slaves of righteousness".
We are ALWAYS "slaves", either of sin, or or righteousness.

And the change does not originate with us and our imaginary "free will".
We have "been set free" (passive voice) from sin. Someone SET us free.
And who was that? "Thanks be to God". Why is Paul thanking God? Because it was GOD who set us free from sin, and made us slaves of righteousness. It was not our imaginary "free will".

Eph. 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Col. 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Do you truly believe you are "dead in the trespasses and sins", or do you believe you are merely "sick in your sins", and able to make a "decision" for Christ?

And notice again, it was GOD who "made [us] alive".
 
If you add up infallible foreknowledge, with a sin nature from the fall
Yep.

It's fascinating to study the Biblical concepts "know" and "foreknow", and their noun cognates, "knowledge" and "foreknowledge".

In the Bible, the term "know" (both in the Hebrew and Greek had three different connotations:
- the attainment of factual information;
- sexual relationship ("Adam knew his wife, and she conceived")
- platonic relationship ("Depart from me, I never knew you", "you only have I known").

The form "foreknow" also has this connotation of "relationship", and when the term is used of God, it means 'to choose in advance [for relationship]".


BDAG:
προγινώσκω
1.
to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth.
2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29. τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ 11:2

(When the object of "proginosko" is a person ("someone"), the meaning is "choose in advance).


UBS Lexicon:
προγινώσκω
(aor. προέγνων) know already, know beforehand; choose from the beginning, choose beforehand


Mounce Greek Dictionary:
προγινώσκω
proginōskō 5x
to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges, Rom. 8:29; 11:2*
 
Mounce Greek Dictionary:
προγινώσκω
proginōskō 5x
to know beforehand,
Yes
This is the only definition free will advocates accept
to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17;
Also true, although they'll waver on it.
to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges, Rom. 8:29; 11:2*
My point has been this definition is logically inescapable if the 1st one is accepted anyway.
There's a reason it's listed as a meaning.

If a choice is infallibly known ahead of time, it has also been determined to happen, otherwise his foreknowledge is not infallible.
If God is immutable, it necessarily means what He knows will happen has been unalterably prearranged.

Simple modern definition of ordain = prearrange unalterably.

So the 1st definition which they accept, necessarily demands the last 3 which they reject.
 
This would only be necessary with Pelagians....
Boogeyman; cool. What does that have to do with:
You need to explain how Gen 3:15 applies to God decreeing/ordaining all things that come to pass; sounds like a genetic fallacy.
The context is Satan being crushed by Jesus Christ.
 
You mean God prearranged an inevitable domino effect so that Cain wanted to and did kill Abel, ie Cain had no other choice of what could have happened. Correct?
If you add up infallible foreknowledge, with a sin nature from the fall
Yep.
And Adam's fall? It was not an inevitable prearranged domino effect?
The extent of whether or not Adam's fall was prearranged can only be logically attained.
We're not given those details so we have to extrapolate logic back before the fall for an answer.

Adam may not have had a sin nature, he may have been created "upright".
Nonetheless a sin nature combined with God's infallible foreknowledge creates a prearranged domino effect.
Since God knew Cain would kill Abel, and Cain had a sin nature, he was "determined" to kill Abel.
 
Boogeyman; cool. What does that have to do with:
You need to explain how Gen 3:15 applies to God decreeing/ordaining all things that come to pass; sounds like a genetic fallacy.
The context is Satan being crushed by Jesus Christ.
I'd like to hear you deny the fall first.
 
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