Some believe that God predestines all things. If that is so who killed Abel?

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armylngst

Well-known member
Some carry predestination to an absurd length. They believe that God predestines all things which would include all evils and lies.
Of course that is not the God of the Bible.

An example of the absurdities that this logically leads to is the murder of Abel.
If God predestined Cain to kill Abel, then it was really God that did it. Cain was no more than just a weapon in God's hand.
That is not true. You hold God under the law of creation when He is the one who created those laws. God predestines all things, and uses all things to bring about His will. That includes sin. He didn't author it, He didn't create it, but if you learned anything from Job... God uses it.
Another example is God predestines all things then God predestines all lies. But Jesus Christ is not the father of lies, Satan is.
Apparently you have no idea how predestine works. You may want to go learn more.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - John 8:44
Let's use your logic for a moment. The devil is the father of lies. God created the devil, the father of lies. God allowed him to rule over the world in lieu of Adam. God is omniscient, therefore knew exactly who the devil would be when He created him. So, what does that say using your logic? You have to be consistent. Come one, what does your logic say? Before you said:
If God predestined Cain to kill Abel, then it was really God that did it.
So if God predestined the devil, the father of lies, what does that mean in your logic, given what you said above?
Another example is that the Israelites were at one time deceived into sacrificing their children to devils. But God said that it never came into His mind that they should do that. So God could not have predestined that evil.
This is just another example of you not understanding what scripture says.
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: - Jeremiah 19:5
"35 And they build the high places of Baal, that [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin." (YLT... ie Septuagint.)

It never came into God's heart to command them to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech. The grammar is present in all the versions, however, when you don't understand how grammar works, you tend to miss it. Hence it helps to use other versions which care about grammar. This is God explaining for you that He is not the cause.
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. - Jeremiah 32:35

I know that many of the Reformed are into predestination. But there are differences of opinion.
What do you believe? Did God predestine all evils and all lies?
What are you talking about? God ordained everything. And so what if God predestined everything? Who are you to judge God to His face? Where is your fear, man? Consider Moses and Miriam and what God said to Miriam and Aaron. God asked them where is there fear when confronting God. Did they confront God? They didn't think so. They confronted Moses. However, God explained to them that Moses was and is God's choice, so to go up against Moses is to go up against God. You are treating God indirectly in the same way. What if God did predestine everything and you are wrong. What are you left with. All the things you said against God stand. God will ask you about it. Where is your fear? Why don't you think about what you write before you write it?
 

fltom

Well-known member
Would sin have occurred apart from God creating?

If your answer is "No" then you affirm that God is the Ultimate cause of "all things" that result from that action...

Add to that the fact that God knew the result of his action before he acted...

Add to that the fact that God must uphold "all things" at all moments after he created for all known results to occur.




Nope... but God's act of creation guaranteed the known results of that action.

...
That is not the issue

Would you sin if your mother had not given birth to you?

Is your mother then the cause of your sin?

stop trying to lay your sin off on God and take responsibility
 
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SavedByTheLord

Well-known member
In fact, the entire Bible shows that God did not predestine all things. For example, in the following verse, God clearly did not predestine these evils.

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: - Jer 19:5
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
In fact, the entire Bible shows that God did not predestine all things.

Except that it doesn't.

For example, in the following verse, God clearly did not predestine these evils.

I believe you are misinterpreting your "proof-text".

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: - Jer 19:5
Sadly for you, there are two valid ways of interpreting this verse. You are biased against God's predestination (Rom. 8, Eph. 1, etc.), so you refuse to accept any alternative interpretation.

I'm guessing you are already aware of your own interpretation, so I'll only show the alternate:

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind [to command them]: - Jer 19:5

Not only is this interpretation completely valid and reasonable, but your misinterpretation is a denial of God's omniscience. You might want to ponder on that problem.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Except that it doesn't.



I believe you are misinterpreting your "proof-text".


Sadly for you, there are two valid ways of interpreting this verse. You are biased against God's predestination (Rom. 8, Eph. 1, etc.), so you refuse to accept any alternative interpretation.

I'm guessing you are already aware of your own interpretation, so I'll only show the alternate:

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind [to command them]: - Jer 19:5

Not only is this interpretation completely valid and reasonable, but your misinterpretation is a denial of God's omniscience. You might want to ponder on that problem.
Only if you interpret the verse as meaning he did not know

instead of it did not come to his mind they should (as in he wanted it done)

It has the advantage of not making God disengenuous by determining it and stating it wasn't something he commanded or that it did not come into his mind to command when he would have decreed it and taken steps to determine it in your theologyl

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV) — 5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—

also

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.


Is. 30:1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD,
“who carry out a plan, but not mine,
and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;

Gal. 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.

1Cor. 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Rom. 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Some carry predestination to an absurd length. They believe that God predestines all things which would include all evils and lies.
Of course that is not the God of the Bible.

An example of the absurdities that this logically leads to is the murder of Abel.
If God predestined Cain to kill Abel, then it was really God that did it. Cain was no more than just a weapon in God's hand.

Another example is God predestines all things then God predestines all lies. But Jesus Christ is not the father of lies, Satan is.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - John 8:44

Another example is that the Israelites were at one time deceived into sacrificing their children to devils. But God said that it never came into His mind that they should do that. So God could not have predestined that evil.

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: - Jeremiah 19:5

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. - Jeremiah 32:35

I know that many of the Reformed are into predestination. But there are differences of opinion.
What do you believe? Did God predestine all evils and all lies?

Many confuse the decrees of God with what is predestination.

His decrees?

If God did not decree what is to be, will be?

It might take someone a thousand years to accomplish what now takes only one day, to end up with the same choice.
In effect... The decrees of God trims off all the excessive volitional fat and leaves the "meat" of one's desire intact.
And, then has that desire to be expressed and recognized by the one making the choices.

What if God decided not to decree? And, instead gave everyone unlimited chances to accomplish what they would want to accomplish?
It would become insanely wearisome for those who will not want to do things the right way.
They would keep trying to find different ways to end up not doing what God would desire them to do. The decree makes certain
what that choice will be, and does not keep on giving alternative takes to let that person keep on working towards the same goal
to try to make his wrong choice into something right to do.

The decrees of God simply "cuts to the chase," and has what one will desire to do, have its consequences made manifested.
Its the person's volition that will determine what God decrees to happen, as to reveal to that person what they want to desire and choose.


Predestination???

Predestination involves God's over-riding will in determining the time and consequences for how and when believers will live.

For example? If God wanted Moses to be in the body of Christ to be a member of the church?
God would have predestined Moses to be born during the Church age and then have Moses make his choice to believe .

Predestination does not mean God would have made Moses believe.
But, God predestined that Moses be born and situated in a specific time in history (dispensation) to be free to believe as he will want to.

Many skim right through what is written and assume that God predestined people to believe. That He forces them into a state of having to believe. "Irresistible grace."

Instead... From all God knows will believe has chosen certain believers to become a member of the body of Christ, by predetermining when they were to be born. "Chosen in Him" means to be the bride of Christ.


grace and peace ...............
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-known member
Many confuse the decrees of God with what is predestination.

His decrees?

If God did not decree what is to be, will be?

It might take someone a thousand years to accomplish what now takes only one day, to end up with the same choice.
In effect... The decrees of God trims off all the excessive volitional fat and leaves the "meat" of one's desire intact.
And, then has that desire to be expressed and recognized by the one making the choices.

What if God decided not to decree? And, instead gave everyone unlimited chances to accomplish what they would want to accomplish?
It would become insanely wearisome for those who will not want to do things the right way.
They would keep trying to find different ways to end up not doing what God would desire them to do. The decree makes certain
what that choice will be, and does not keep on giving alternative takes to let that person keep on working towards the same goal
to try to make his wrong choice into something right to do.

The decrees of God simply "cuts to the chase," and has what one will desire to do, have its consequences made manifested.
Its the person's volition that will determine what God decrees to happen, as to reveal to that person what they want to desire and choose.


Predestination???

Predestination involves God's over-riding will in determining the time and consequences for how and when believers will live.

For example? If God wanted Moses to be in the body of Christ to be a member of the church?
God would have predestined Moses to be born during the Church age and then have Moses make his choice to believe .

Predestination does not mean God would have made Moses believe.
But, God predestined that Moses be born and situated in a specific time in history (dispensation) to be free to believe as he will want to.

Many skim right through what is written and assume that God predestined people to believe. That He forces them into a state of having to believe. "Irresistible grace."

Instead... From all God knows will believe has chosen certain believers to become a member of the body of Christ, by predetermining when they were to be born. "Chosen in Him" means to be the bride of Christ.


grace and peace ...............
well your answer is well thought out but I want to test it a bit,

Did God cause Israel to actually sacrifice children to devils?

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: - Her 19:5
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
well your answer is well thought out but I want to test it a bit,

Did God cause Israel to actually sacrifice children to devils?

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: - Her 19:5

God destroyed them for doing that!

Therefore, why would God cause them to do that?

God decreed that their choice to want to do wrong was to be allowed. And, God set what they did as an example to show Satan and his angels how they deserve what punishment God has in store for them. For such practice is inspired by Satan and his angels.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-known member
God destroyed them for doing that!

Therefore, why would God cause them to do that?

God decreed that their choice to want to do wrong was to be allowed. And, God set what they did as an example to show Satan and his angels how they deserve what punishment God has in store for them. For such practice is inspired by Satan and his angels.
Correct. I agree.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Then you agree that God pre-determined that the Israelites would sacrifice children to demons (assuming that you accept God's omniscience and omnipotence - you do at least believe in those, I hope).
God predetermined that He would not stop Israel from doing what they wanted to do...

So He could judge them.
 

Calsgal2

Member
Some carry predestination to an absurd length. They believe that God predestines all things which would include all evils and lies.
Of course that is not the God of the Bible.

An example of the absurdities that this logically leads to is the murder of Abel.
If God predestined Cain to kill Abel, then it was really God that did it. Cain was no more than just a weapon in God's hand.

Another example is God predestines all things then God predestines all lies. But Jesus Christ is not the father of lies, Satan is.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - John 8:44

Another example is that the Israelites were at one time deceived into sacrificing their children to devils. But God said that it never came into His mind that they should do that. So God could not have predestined that evil.

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: - Jeremiah 19:5

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. - Jeremiah 32:35

I know that many of the Reformed are into predestination. But there are differences of opinion.
What do you believe? Did God predestine all evils and all lies?
God ordained the fall … He put the tree in the garden for that purpose… … the cross existed before the foundation of the earth …. Nothing happens out of Gods will
 
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