Some believe that God predestines all things. If that is so who killed Abel?

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fltom

Well-known member
Reformedguy said:
Your effect is no effect at all. Their born innocent remember? And if they die in infancy there is no need for your universal atonement.
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Sorry you are in denial

Mortality and a sin nature are both an effect

Native depravity, not native demerit.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) — 16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

2 Kings 14:6 (ESV) — 6 But he did not put to death the children of the murderers, according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, where the LORD commanded, “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. But each one shall die for his own sin.”

2 Chronicles 25:4 (ESV) — 4 But he did not put their children to death, according to what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, “Fathers shall not die because of their children, nor children die because of their fathers, but each one shall die for his own sin.”

Leviticus 18:29 (ESV) — 29 For everyone who does any of these abominations, the persons who do them shall be cut off from among their people.

Ezekiel 18:2–4 (KJV 1900) — 2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge? 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) — 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
 
R

Reformedguy

Well-known member
fltom said:
Sorry you are in denial

Mortality and a sin nature are both an effect

Native depravity, not native demerit.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) — 16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

2 Kings 14:6 (ESV) — 6 But he did not put to death the children of the murderers, according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, where the LORD commanded, “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. But each one shall die for his own sin.”

2 Chronicles 25:4 (ESV) — 4 But he did not put their children to death, according to what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, “Fathers shall not die because of their children, nor children die because of their fathers, but each one shall die for his own sin.”

Leviticus 18:29 (ESV) — 29 For everyone who does any of these abominations, the persons who do them shall be cut off from among their people.

Ezekiel 18:2–4 (KJV 1900) — 2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge? 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) — 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
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Both effects are sinful.

Define native depravity and how if it's not of faith it's not sin.
 
CookedGoose

CookedGoose

Well-known member
fltom said:
Sorry you are in denial

Mortality and a sin nature are both an effect

Native depravity, not native demerit.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) — 16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
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My goodness Tom, Seriously.......
I know I've mentioned this to you more than once.
This is Mosaic law
It's how Jewish lawyers were to treat sins regarding Jewish family members while the Mosaic covenant was in effect.
It's context is specific, doesn't reference all humanity for all eternity.
And certainly doesn't reference the Edenic covenant.

To prove the point, I found another Mosaic command, from Deuteronomy 25.
Deut. 25/4
"You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain."

I hope you're not still muzzling your ox.
Shameful.
 
F

fltom

Well-known member
CookedGoose said:
My goodness Tom, Seriously.......
I know I've mentioned this to you more than once.
This is Mosaic law
It's how Jewish lawyers were to treat sins regarding Jewish family members while the Mosaic covenant was in effect.
It's context is specific, doesn't reference all humanity for all eternity.
And certainly doesn't reference the Edenic covenant.

To prove the point, I found another Mosaic command, from Deuteronomy 25.
Deut. 25/4
"You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain."

I hope you're not still muzzling your ox.
Shameful.
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So What makes you think God's principles of moral justice vary?

If you cannot show from scripture where mankind is held guilty of Adam's sin all you have are the assumptions of your theology.

PS I do not have an ox
 
F

fltom

Well-known member
Reformedguy said:
Both effects are sinful.

Define native depravity and how if it's not of faith it's not sin.
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You failed to address the scriptures as usual

  - Some believe that God predestines all things. If that is so who killed Abel?

He will not agree to that. He is Pelagian You bear false witness I do not believe man was unaffected by the fall Your effect is no effect at all. Their born innocent remember? And if they die in infancy there is no need for your universal atonement.
forums.carm.org

The inheritance of a sin nature
 
CookedGoose

CookedGoose

Well-known member
fltom said:
So What makes you think God's principles of moral justice vary?

If you cannot show from scripture where mankind is held guilty of Adam's sin all you have are the assumptions of your theology.

PS I do not have an ox
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What you're asking me is......

Why can't I take a specific command out of context and apply it anyway I like to support my view?

The reason should be self evident.
It wasn't intended for the purpose you're applying it to.
 
F

fltom

Well-known member
CookedGoose said:
What you're asking me is......

Why can't I take a specific command out of context and apply it anyway I like to support my view?

The reason should be self evident.
It wasn't intended for the purpose you're applying it to.
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No, what I am asking you for is to produce a verse which actually supports your position

You have not done it.
 
CookedGoose

CookedGoose

Well-known member
fltom said:
No, what I am asking you for is to produce a verse which actually supports your position

You have not done it.
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My position is you're taking a Mosaic command and applying it to the Edenic covenant.
Here's my proof.

Your command is in DEUTERONOMY 24.
Do I need anymore proof?
 
R

Reformedguy

Well-known member
fltom said:
You failed to address the scriptures as usual

  - Some believe that God predestines all things. If that is so who killed Abel?

He will not agree to that. He is Pelagian You bear false witness I do not believe man was unaffected by the fall Your effect is no effect at all. Their born innocent remember? And if they die in infancy there is no need for your universal atonement.
forums.carm.org

The inheritance of a sin nature
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Is a sin nature, if it's not of faith, sinful?
 
F

fltom

Well-known member
Reformedguy said:
Is a sin nature, if it's not of faith, sinful?
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You still avoid answering questions by asking other questions

  - Some believe that God predestines all things. If that is so who killed Abel?

He will not agree to that. He is Pelagian You bear false witness I do not believe man was unaffected by the fall Your effect is no effect at all. Their born innocent remember? And if they die in infancy there is no need for your universal atonement.
forums.carm.org

no, a nature biased toward sin is not sin itself
 
F

fltom

Well-known member
CookedGoose said:
My position is you're taking a Mosaic command and applying it to the Edenic covenant.
Here's my proof.

Your command is in DEUTERONOMY 24.
Do I need anymore proof?
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You failed to produce a single verse which states man is guilty of Adam's sin

Yes you need a verse which actually states what you believe,

but such a verse does not exist.
 
F

fltom

Well-known member
Bob Carabbio said:
Cain.

"Some believe" that the earth is flat, and that we've never been to the moon. So much for "Some".
It's nothing but "theology" after all, so no big deal.
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Actually it is a big deal

Whether God predetermined all of man's sin or not
 
H

Howie

Well-known member
SavedByTheLord said:
Some carry predestination to an absurd length. They believe that God predestines all things which would include all evils and lies.
Of course that is not the God of the Bible.

An example of the absurdities that this logically leads to is the murder of Abel.
If God predestined Cain to kill Abel, then it was really God that did it. Cain was no more than just a weapon in God's hand.

Another example is God predestines all things then God predestines all lies. But Jesus Christ is not the father of lies, Satan is.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - John 8:44

Another example is that the Israelites were at one time deceived into sacrificing their children to devils. But God said that it never came into His mind that they should do that. So God could not have predestined that evil.

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: - Jeremiah 19:5

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. - Jeremiah 32:35

I know that many of the Reformed are into predestination. But there are differences of opinion.
What do you believe? Did God predestine all evils and all lies?
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Scripture tells you who killed Abel.
 
Yodas_Prodigy

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
fltom said:
Actually it is a big deal

Whether God predetermined all of man's sin or not
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Predetermined is a permissive word in my viewing. God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, sovereign, and providential. By definition, this means God knew of all of man's sins before we commit them... He allows sin... In summary, he predetermined (allowed) that his creation would be infected with sin and then go through a restoration process...
 
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