Some believe that God predestines all things. If that is so who killed Abel?

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Sketo

Well-known member

Some believe that God predestines all things.​


Yes. This is a Transcendent level understanding of God’s metaphysical relationship to “all things” created and sustained by him at all moments of the timeline of creation.

If that is so who killed Abel?​


But here you ask a Storyline Level question.

Answer: Cain killed Able

It’s like stating J.R.R. Tolkien “predestines all things” that occurs in his creation The Lord Of The Rings…

… then asking “If that is so who killed…” Gandalf?

This is a Storyline level question?

Answer: Balrog killed Gandalf

Does this answer change the fact that Tolkien predetermined when where and how Balrog would kill Gandalf in the timeline of his creation?

Answer: No because both are true on different levels.

 

SavedByTheLord

Well-known member
Yes. This is a Transcendent level understanding of God’s metaphysical relationship to “all things” created and sustained by him at all moments of the timeline of creation.



But here you ask a Storyline Level question.

Answer: Cain killed Able

It’s like stating J.R.R. Tolkien “predestines all things” that occurs in his creation The Lord Of The Rings…

… then asking “If that is so who killed…” Gandalf?

This is a Storyline level question?

Answer: Balrog killed Gandalf

Does this answer change the fact that Tolkien predetermined when where and how Balrog would kill Gandalf in the timeline of his creation?

Answer: No because both are true on different levels.

Actually it was Tolkien that “killed” Gandalf.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Yes, that's what I mean.
Also that there's no imputed judicial guilt applied To Adam's descendants.

Not sure how you're tying this in.

But wouldn't this be the judicial guilt itself?
If we all sin because of Adam
And we're condemned for our sin

No it would not

Adam was told he would know good and evil if he ate of the tree.

I believe that includes an experiential knowing and not just mental knowledge.

He experienced a change of nature after he sinned

Adam procreated after his kind and passed on that nature
 

CookedGoose

Well-known member
No it would not

Adam was told he would know good and evil if he ate of the tree.

I believe that includes an experiential knowing and not just mental knowledge.

He experienced a change of nature after he sinned

Adam procreated after his kind and passed on that nature
Ah.... Now I get it!
You have a COMPLETELY different view of the fall.
Even a different view of when it happened in Genesis 3

You believe the fall was not the judgment at all.
It was magic fruit that gave Adam "fall" like symptoms.

In your view, when God said "the day you eat of it you shall surely die"
He meant it was magical "poison" fruit, not that he would receive a judgment of death from God.

Thanks Tom
Explains A LOT!!
 

fltom

Well-known member
A change from innocence? Front innocence to what?

Unlimited atonement is false
Did you forget I noted men inherit a nature biased toward sin/

you fail to show unlimited atonement is false

and scripture refutes you


Christ died list

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Exported from Logos Bible Software, 9:03 AM September 20, 2023.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Did you forget I noted men inherit a nature biased toward sin/

you fail to show unlimited atonement is false

and scripture refutes you


Christ died list

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Exported from Logos Bible Software, 9:03 AM September 20, 2023.
You did not address my question. They still need to be changed from a innocent state? To what exactly?
 

fltom

Well-known member
You did not address my question. They still need to be changed from a innocent state? To what exactly?
Read as you were answered

Did you forget I noted men inherit a nature biased toward sin

Atonement is needed for that

Of course you ignored scripture

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Exported from Logos Bible Software, 9:03 AM September 20, 2023.
 

CookedGoose

Well-known member
I believe that includes an experiential knowing and not just mental knowledge.

He experienced a change of nature after he sinned
Ah.... Now I get it!
You have a COMPLETELY different view of the fall.
Even a different view of when it happened in Genesis 3

You believe the fall was not the judgment at all.
It was magic fruit that gave Adam "fall" like symptoms.

In your view, when God said "the day you eat of it you shall surely die"
He meant it was magical "poison" fruit, not that he would receive a judgment of death from God.

Thanks Tom
Explains A LOT!!
I'm surprised you're not correcting me on this Tom.
You must be sticking to it.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Not in Calvinism or normal language

If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

The question you have to ask, is God sovereign in all aspects of his creation or not. Did God at a divine council meeting use a fallen spirit to help a prophet lie? Did God hand Job over to Satan and let him do what he pleased as long as he didn't kill Job? Did God use a killer Angel to kill the first born of Egypt? Did God use Persia, Babylon, Greece, and Rome to judge Israel?

We also can't forget:

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Where does the Bible teach that infants are "innocent"?

I guess you don't beileve Scripture:

Rom. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Chuckle!!! Maybe they kicked mommy too hard on the inside.

SO you ascribe to "Adam's SIN' being imputed to all humans, then.
I.e. - Having no sin of their own, they have to die anyway FOR SOMEBODY ELSE'S Sin????
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Chuckle!!! Maybe they kicked mommy too hard on the inside.

Rom. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

So I guess you think "all" doesn't REALLY mean "all"?
Is that what you're saying?

SO you ascribe to "Adam's SIN' being imputed to all humans, then.
I.e. - Having no sin of their own, they have to die anyway FOR SOMEBODY ELSE'S Sin????

Where does the Bible teach, infants "have no sin of their own"?
Chapter and verse, please?
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Rom. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

So I guess you think "all" doesn't REALLY mean "all"?
Is that what you're saying?



Where does the Bible teach, infants "have no sin of their own"?
Chapter and verse, please?

wow ............

Calvinism is a disease.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Rom. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

So I guess you think "all" doesn't REALLY mean "all"?
Is that what you're saying?
Chuckle!! We ALL have sinned (as soon as we could) and we didn't need any assistance from Adam in doing so, since we've got the same nature Adam was created with, and temptation works the same as it always did.
Where does the Bible teach, infants "have no sin of their own"? Chapter and verse, please?
The same place that it teaches that Infants and fetuses HAVE sin, and have to go to hell for it. (chuckle)
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Chuckle!! We ALL have sinned (as soon as we could) and we didn't need any assistance from Adam in doing so, since we've got the same nature Adam was created with, and temptation works the same as it always did.

And that would be true for infants as well, correct?
So where do you get this idea of "innocent" infants?

You clearly don't believe "all" means "all" in "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23).

The same place that it teaches that Infants and fetuses HAVE sin, and have to go to hell for it. (chuckle)

So you simply ASSUME that infants are sinless, even though Scripture ("ALL have sinned", ROm. 3:23) refutes you.
 
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