Some believe that God predestines all things. If that is so who killed Abel?

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And that would be true for infants as well, correct?
So where do you get this idea of "innocent" infants?

You clearly don't believe "all" means "all" in "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23).



So you simply ASSUME that infants are sinless, even though Scripture ("ALL have sinned", ROm. 3:23) refutes you.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

SO - obviously ALL MEN will be saved, then.
 
The question you have to ask, is God sovereign in all aspects of his creation or not. Did God at a divine council meeting use a fallen spirit to help a prophet lie? Did God hand Job over to Satan and let him do what he pleased as long as he didn't kill Job? Did God use a killer Angel to kill the first born of Egypt? Did God use Persia, Babylon, Greece, and Rome to judge Israel?

We also can't forget:

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Sovereignty does not mean god must determine all things.

It simply means he rules as king.

Satan we know does not have determinative power
 
And that would be true for infants as well, correct?
So where do you get this idea of "innocent" infants?

You clearly don't believe "all" means "all" in "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23).



So you simply ASSUME that infants are sinless, even though Scripture ("ALL have sinned", ROm. 3:23) refutes you.
Funny seeing as you assumed all instances of all do not mean all when they contradict your theology.
 
Funny seeing as you assumed all instances of all do not mean all when they contradict your theology.

That's simply not true, Tom.
That is nothing but your FALSE accusation.

I have NEVER said, " 'all' doesn't mean 'all' ", because that is NOT what I believe.

When I reject your false interpretation of "all men", I don't take issue with "all" (which means, "all". I take issue with your false interpretation of "men", as I don't believe that it means, "individuals".

You are free to disagree with me.
But you are NOT free to MISREPRESENT me.
Repent!
 
That's simply not true, Tom.
That is nothing but your FALSE accusation.

I have NEVER said, " 'all' doesn't mean 'all' ", because that is NOT what I believe.

When I reject your false interpretation of "all men", I don't take issue with "all" (which means, "all". I take issue with your false interpretation of "men", as I don't believe that it means, "individuals".

You are free to disagree with me.
But you are NOT free to MISREPRESENT me.
Repent!
It is exactly what you believe

It always means some subset of all the noun modified in your theology



1 Ti 2:4–6

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Ro 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



Is 53:6

All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


1 Ti 4:10

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

In each case all modifies men or all that went astray

but your theology converts that to some men

That is an invalid approach and denial all really means all
 
Read as you were answered

Did you forget I noted men inherit a nature biased toward sin

Atonement is needed for that

Of course you ignored scripture

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift cathe upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Exported from Logos Bible Software, 9:03 AM September 20, 2023.
Why? You said your a sinner until you actually sin and it sounds like infants are not innocent.

The Bible nowhere says atonement is needed for a inherited sin nature TOWARDS sin. You made that up.
 
Why? You said your a sinner until you actually sin and it sounds like infants are not innocent.

The Bible nowhere says atonement is needed for a inherited sin nature TOWARDS sin. You made that up.
Read what you ignored

Read as you were answered

Did you forget I noted men inherit a nature biased toward sin

Atonement is needed for that

Of course you ignored scripture

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift cathe upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Exported from Logos Bible Software, 9:03 AM September 20, 2023.
 
Read what you ignored

Read as you were answered

Did you forget I noted men inherit a nature biased toward sin

Atonement is needed for that

Of course you ignored scripture

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift cathe upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Exported from Logos Bible Software, 9:03 AM September 20, 2023.
Where does it say we inherit a nature biased towards sin yet remain in a state of innocence.

Hint: NOWHERE

Where does it state your born with nature inclined towards sin yet remain in a state of innocence.


Hint: NOWHERE
 
Where does it say we inherit a nature biased towards sin yet remain in a state of innocence.

Hint: NOWHERE

Where does it state your born with nature inclined towards sin yet remain in a state of innocence.


Hint: NOWHERE
Where does it state we are guilty of Adam's sin - nowhere

The bible teaches Adam would know good and evil and that man propagates after his likeness after his kind
 
Where does it state we are guilty of Adam's sin - nowhere

The bible teaches Adam would know good and evil and that man propagates after his likeness after his kind
Still waiting on evidence of these silly assertions.

We inherit a inclination towards sin yet remain in innocence.

A innocent person with a inclination towards sin is still in need of atonement especially if they die in this state of innocence.
 
Still waiting on evidence of these silly assertions.

We inherit a inclination towards sin yet remain in innocence.

A innocent person with a inclination towards sin is still in need of atonement especially if they die in this state of innocence.
Again Adam would know good and evil

experientially so

His progeny would inherit his nature

Where is your proof for guilt?
 
Again Adam would know good and evil

experientially so

His progeny would inherit his nature

Where is your proof for guilt?
Because Adam represented mankind in the garden. He broke the Adamic covenant when he sinned. In Adam we all sinned that day.
 
Because Adam represented mankind in the garden. He broke the Adamic covenant when he sinned. In Adam we all sinned that day.
sorry, that says nothing at all about man being guilty of Adam's sin

and nowhere is it stated we all sinned in adam.
 
sorry, that says nothing at all about man being guilty of Adam's sin

and nowhere is it stated we all sinned in adam.
Federal heads ship. Look it up.

If the US breaks a treaty, a covenant, all Americans are guilty of breaking the treaty. The US government represents us all.
 
Sovereignty does not mean god must determine all things.

It simply means he rules as king.

Satan we know does not have determinative power
God is control of every atom in the universe. If any atom does something not approved by God, then God is not sovereign... God is not the author of sin. But he does use sinful people to complete his plans...
 
Still waiting on evidence of these silly assertions.

We inherit a inclination towards sin yet remain in innocence.

A innocent person with a inclination towards sin is still in need of atonement especially if they die in this state of innocence.
And since Jesus was TEMPTED IN ALL RESPECTS AS WE ARE, it appears that the only difference is that Jesus never allowed HIS LUST (strong personal desire) to CONCEIVE, and become sinful actions.
 
God is control of every atom in the universe. If any atom does something not approved by God, then God is not sovereign... God is not the author of sin. But he does use sinful people to complete his plans...
First that is not the definition of sovereignty

and according to Calvinism

If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are. On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are. On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. A beginners guide to free will

God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes—as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem—God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child…


Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.

b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,

Quote may be found


how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for His mercy’s sake, or to evil according to their merits. ” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 10:11)
 
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