Some Christians are claiming that Jews understood God as a trinity.

Biblican

Well-known member
One of these days you will be forced to understand that the Bible is a spiritual record and must be understood therefore by the Spirit and in spiritual terms and not that which can be discernable through the flesh.

Can you show us where any of the Apostles or disciples of Jesus taught the people of a trinity or Jesus as being God in the book of Acts?

Just read Acts 2 again and very carefully, for Peter says nothing about Jesus being God but instead makes it clear that Jesus was a man approved of God and the one whom God himself made Lord and Christ and as per Acts 2:22-24.


Therefore your statement that the first century believers all believed and taught that Jesus is God, is false completely, for the book of Acts proves you wrong.

By the way, which one of the disciples or Apostles of Jesus were persecuted or put to death in the book of Acts for teaching that Jesus is God and this should alarm you being you believe that the Jews really did put Jesus to death for making himself equal with God.


So why weren't any of his disciples or Apostles persecuted for believing this and teaching it?


No, for the Jews didn't kill Jesus because he was making himself equal with God but rather out of envy and hatred for him because he exposed them as the phonies that they really were in the sermon of the Eight Woes and even Pilot understood this as the real reason.



Just search where the words "Son of God" or God's Son" appear in the OT and you will see no such idea that to be called God's Son made someone equal unto God.

For God first called David by this title in Psalm 2:7 and then after him and from his own descendants, Solomon after him in 2 Samuel 7:14 and therefore the Jews understood that when Jesus called God his Father and himself God's Son, that he was the Anointed one from the line of David that would fulfill the full promise that God made to David and his people.


By the way, this is also seen in Peter's sermon in Acts 2 as well.
The apostles clearly recognized that there are three, God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus. They recognized that Jesus' Spirit is the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit as Jesus said, then the Holy Spirit unifies them and makes them one God. This principle is clearly illustrated in Isaiah 42:1 as I mentioned before. God unifies Himself with the Messiah with His Spirit. All three are distinct from each other, all three can operate simultaneously and all three are one. What was not taught by the Apostles was the wording of the definition of the Trinity, that God eternally exists as three persons as the word soul is only associated with God and Jesus in the scriptures. The Holy Spirit is rendered in the neuter. God has designed the spirit to operate with the soul, therefore the person of the Holy Spirit has to be the persons of God and Jesus combined as in John 14:23. God and Jesus operate in the believer through one mutual Holy Spirit.
 

Biblican

Well-known member
Not so, for again, God is calling those things that be not as though they were and he did this with every thing that he created also.



Furthermore, God only made one man and one woman directly but when he said let us make man in in our image and likeness, the word "man" in that passage should be understood as a race as "mankind, for it wasn't God's intention that his creation of man in his image should begin and end with only Adam and Eve.

No, he determined it to be a race in his image and therefore Adam and Eve would be part of making that race in God's image and therefore God, Adam and Eve and then the seed of the woman Jesus Christ God's human Son would be the "us:" together in making mankind in God's image.

This should have happened first through their obedience to God and then by their eating of the Tree of Life and then also through their procreation the image of God in their offspring (mankind) and which would have made Adam that life giving spirit to his descendants that Jesus became in place of him because of Adam's disobedience.

God knew Adam and Eve would fail but in the sense of the procreation of mankind, the word "us" in the passage still refers to God and Adam and Eve but only in regards to the procreation of those who later would be born again through Jesus and therefore eventually conformed to his image in order that God's intention for mankind to be perfected in his image would be fulfilled.

This is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 8:29, "for those whom he foreknew, them he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his (human) Son that he might be the firstborn among many brethren (many other human sons in God's image).

Genesis very spiritual and it is also a very important book to understand correctly through the discernment of the Holy Spirit, for if you don't understand it correctly, neither will you understand what it means for the Logos to be made flesh.

Anyone who trusts the writings of the ECF's as being inspired writings, is being very foolish and not being inspired by God they were open to corruption and unlike the actually scriptures that would have the seal of God's approval and protect.

I happen to have the Logos Libronix Bible software and it includes all of the ECF's, and what I have read from them, proves to me that they to busy in their own thinking with the Bible and therefore not being led of the Holy Spirit.


Only the Scriptures themselves are the inspired words of God period and not the writings of the Johnny come after's of the ECF's.


By the way, the Tree of Life and it's fruit represented the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit and not Jesus, unless you can show me a passage that speaks of the fruit of Jesus Christ?????
We will have to agree to disagree. If the apostles believed that the"us" in Genesis is referring to God and the Messiah, I accept their definition.
The tree of life was the source of their longevity. We receive eternal life through Jesus therefore that tree is symbolic of the Messiah.
I only get my doctrine from the scriptures alone. What is the ECF?
 

Biblican

Well-known member
You do.


No, keeping them proves we align with the spirit.


Some people eat them and live long lives.
Not initially. You locate the words first and see how they are used and check the Hebrew to verify the distinctions which I did.
Yes, keeping God's word is evidence that we are being led by the Spirit. Keeping them apart from God's salvation in the Messiah can bless us, but cannot get us into heaven according to the New Covenant.

If you eat a bat you run the risk of getting rabies. You can eat a certain amount of shellfish without any ill effects, but eating too much can result in very serious food allergies.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Not initially. You locate the words first and see how they are used and check the Hebrew to verify the distinctions which I did.
You need additional work.

Yes, keeping God's word is evidence that we are being led by the Spirit. Keeping them apart from God's salvation in the Messiah can bless us, but cannot get us into heaven according to the New Covenant.
There is zero salvation in Messiah. Zero support.

If you eat a bat you run the risk of getting rabies. You can eat a certain amount of shellfish without any ill effects, but eating too much can result in very serious food allergies.
And yet people in Asia live long lives with this diet. It has nothing to do with health. Its obedience and abstinence.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
We will have to agree to disagree. If the apostles believed that the"us" in Genesis is referring to God and the Messiah, I accept their definition.
And where do the apostles say this?

The tree of life was the source of their longevity.
Yes, obedience to the law, which gives life.

We receive eternal life through Jesus therefore that tree is symbolic of the Messiah.
False.

I only get my doctrine from the scriptures alone. What is the ECF?
False.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
The apostles clearly recognized that there are three, God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus.

Of course, but three what and whose? By the way, the Holy Spirit isn't another person of God but rather belongs to the single being and person of God the same way that our spirit belongs to our single person and being also.

Also I will remind you once again, that in the OT God called his own human representatives by his own title of "elohim" and you will see this is such verses as Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9 and in Psalm 45:6-7 and also in Psalm 82:6 which Jesus also quoted in defense of his only calling God his Father and being accused of making himself equal with God for it.

However, never once did he ever called any of his representatives by his actual name of Yahweh and that includes Jesus also.
They recognized that Jesus' Spirit is the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit as Jesus said, then the Holy Spirit unifies them and makes them one God. This principle is clearly illustrated in Isaiah 42:1 as I mentioned before. God unifies Himself with the Messiah with His Spirit. All three are distinct from each other, all three can operate simultaneously and all three are one. What was not taught by the Apostles was the wording of the definition of the Trinity, that God eternally exists as three persons as the word soul is only associated with God and Jesus in the scriptures. The Holy Spirit is rendered in the neuter. God has designed the spirit to operate with the soul, therefore the person of the Holy Spirit has to be the persons of God and Jesus combined as in John 14:23. God and Jesus operate in the believer through one mutual Holy Spirit.
ROFLOL, the Holy Spirit wasn't the spirit of Jesus in regards to his actual ontology but only in the sense that it was the Spirit of God through which he was made Lord and Christ (the anointed one and also from David's descendants).

Wow, you are really blind, for if the Spirit that God says that he would put upon Jesus in Isaiah 42:1 belongs to Jesus' own ontology to begin with, then how does this passage even make any sense at all?

This is a most ridiculous rendering of the words of Isaiah 42:1 and nothing was ever taught of the Apostles of any suggestion of a trinity but instead this is the invention of apostasy from the truth faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints and which was already secretly entering into the churches even in the first Century and as Jude and 2 Peter 2 and Paul in Acts 21 and 2 Thess 2:7 very clearly warned of also.

By the way, where did you get from the actual scriptures what you wrote above in the bold orange?


Of course, the Holy Spirit is neuter, for the Holy Spirit is not a person independent and on his own but belongs to the single person and being of God the Father period and just like it is with our spirits who are created in God's image and just like Paul suggests also in 1 Corinthians 2:11 and as seen below.


1 Corinthians 2:11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.


I realize that you are thinking that if only you could teach me about all this, then maybe you would build some true confidence in what you believe by my believing it also, but save it dude, for I have already been taught all of that rubbish for the 36 + years I was also a trinitarian myself and I even taught it myself in my church but no longer believe it to be the truth.

Therefore, I can assure you that you are not going to be able to add something that I don't already know about it in order to turn me back to that apostasy of the truth again.

For it isn't going to happen, for I have already gone your route in it and found it to be contradictory to the very words of Jesus himself and therefore there is no way that I would ever go back to it.


Neither will you ever have the same confidence and faith in what you are believing that I have in what I believe and that is because God cannot give his rhema upon the written scriptures to a heart when the written scriptures are being twisted from their true meaning.

For God has left two witnesses in the earth for the truth of his word and it isn't scripture only like some falsely believe but rather it is the witness of the written word in the scriptures as verified by the second witness of the Holy Spirit.

However, your apostate churches have replaced the witness of the Holy Spirit with their own human wisdom and intellect of the flesh and that is why your churches are in divisions that would make the church of Corinth pale in comparison also and just as Paul revealed was already beginning to happen even then and as per 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3..
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
We will have to agree to disagree.

You said right on that note
If the apostles believed that the"us" in Genesis is referring to God and the Messiah, I accept their definition.

Where in their writings did they mention what was meant by Genesis 1:26-27?

Sorry but they left that to the context of Genesis 1 and the true discernment of the Holy Spirit.

Have you never even thought of why only in the creation of man, the "us" is used by God in Genesis 1 or why?

There is a reason and it is left for us to seek out God for the answer why it is only used in the creation of man also.

For starters man as a race was the only creature that God wanted in his image and whereas he only created one man and from him one woman, the race was to be created by God through Adam and Eve and which begins what the word "us" means in the text also.


For God was speaking this into the creation of Adam and also Eve who came from Adam, that they were with God to procreate and raise up their offspring in God's image and this is where the "plural us" begins and also why it is only used in the creation of mankind who were to be created in God's image by the only two that God created directly.

However, they failed in regards to the spiritual aspect of this because of sin, so whereas they were still part with God for creating mankind with God's image in regards to his physical being, Jesus as a human being and seed of the woman as per Genesis 3:15, fulfilled man being made in God's image through his sinless life, death for sin and resurrection.




The tree of life was the source of their longevity. We receive eternal life through Jesus therefore that tree is symbolic of the Messiah.
I only get my doctrine from the scriptures alone. What is the ECF?
Did Adam and Eve ever eat of that Tree of life and have eternal life dude?

If so, then why did they still sin while having no sin within them when created to lead them into sin?

I will bet you haven't a clue as to why do you?

Here is a hint for you, for although God truly created them in his image, that image of God that he created within them was never made alive within them by their receiving the Tree of Life and that is why Satan move with hast to make sure they ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil before they could even think of eating of the Tree of Life, for he knew what was a stake if they did.

So there being created in God's image without ever eating of the Tree of Life, was like it would have been if God created them as living physical beings but didn't breath his temporary breath of life into them in order for what he created to be made a true living soul.

This is another doctrine that your churches are teaching falsely, that man was made to live forever and only by the breath of life that God breathed into his nostrils for him to be made alive physical.

All of this false doctrine comes from their root false doctrines of Jesus being Yahweh and Yahweh being a trinity of three persons, for because of this, they do not understand the figurative words of Jesus about "haydes" as the grave and Hell Fire or Gehenna (incinerator in the Valley of Hinnom) as referring to the total anhelation of the wicked along with the old heaven and earth as per 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Then you have along with all of these, many other false doctrines and such as the pre trib rapture and symbolism of the 1000 years of 2 Peter 3:8-10 and Revelation 20:1-6 and when very clearly the rapture is explained correctly for us in the complete context of 1 Corinthians 15: and especially in verses 22-26 and picking back up in verses 51-58.
 
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Biblican

Well-known member
You said right on that note


Where in their writings did they mention what was meant by Genesis 1:26-27?

Sorry but they left that to the context of Genesis 1 and the true discernment of the Holy Spirit.

Have you never even thought of why only in the creation of man, the "us" is used by God in Genesis 1 or why?

There is a reason and it is left for us to seek out God for the answer why it is only used in the creation of man also.

For starters man as a race was the only creature that God wanted in his image and whereas he only created one man and from him one woman, the race was to be created by God through Adam and Eve and which begins what the word "us" means in the text also.


For God was speaking this into the creation of Adam and also Eve who came from Adam, that they were with God to procreate and raise up their offspring in God's image and this is where the "plural us" begins and also why it is only used in the creation of mankind who were to be created in God's image by the only two that God created directly.

However, they failed in regards to the spiritual aspect of this because of sin, so whereas they were still part with God for creating mankind with God's image in regards to his physical being, Jesus as a human being and seed of the woman as per Genesis 3:15, fulfilled man being made in God's image through his sinless life, death for sin and resurrection.





Did Adam and Eve ever eat of that Tree of life and have eternal life dude?

If so, then why did they still sin while having no sin within them when created to lead them into sin?

I will bet you haven't a clue as to why do you?

Here is a hint for you, for although God truly created them in his image, that image of God that he created within them was never made alive within them by their receiving the Tree of Life and that is why Satan move with hast to make sure they ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil before they could even think of eating of the Tree of Life, for he knew what was a stake if they did.

So there being created in God's image without ever eating of the Tree of Life, was like it would have been if God created them as living physical beings but didn't breath his temporary breath of life into them in order for what he created to be made a true living soul.

This is another doctrine that your churches are teaching falsely, that man was made to live forever and only by the breath of life that God breathed into his nostrils for him to be made alive physical.

All of this false doctrine comes from their root false doctrines of Jesus being Yahweh and Yahweh being a trinity of three persons, for because of this, they do not understand the figurative words of Jesus about "haydes" as the grave and Hell Fire or Gehenna (incinerator in the Valley of Hinnom) as referring to the total anhelation of the wicked along with the old heaven and earth as per 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Then you have along with all of these, many other false doctrines and such as the pre trib rapture and symbolism of the 1000 years of 2 Peter 3:8-10 and Revelation 20:1-6 and when very clearly the rapture is explained correctly for us in the complete context of 1 Corinthians 15: and especially in verses 22-26 and picking back up in verses 51-58.
We will have to agree to disagree.
I gave you then reference from Barnabas. If he was wrong in teaching that the us in Genesis was God and Jesus then the apostles would have corrected him. They all believed that Jesus pre-existed and was with God in the beginning. I accept the scriptures at their face value.
Apparently the tree of life was the source of Adam and Eve's longevity, thus it had to be blocked from them or they would have been able to live forever in their fallen state. The breath of life would not be the source of their longevity only the tree which shows us symbollically that we cannot have eternal life apart from a provision from God.
Jesus' person is not God, He is begotten from God and unified with Him through the Holy Spirit which is illustrated in Isaiah 42:1. Jesus is God through His union with God, that is the Biblical Trinity that is supported 100% by the scriptures.
You don't have to believe in a pre-trib rapture. You just need to pray that you are worthy to escape. However God makes that escape possible is His business.
 

Biblican

Well-known member
Of course, but three what and whose? By the way, the Holy Spirit isn't another person of God but rather belongs to the single being and person of God the same way that our spirit belongs to our single person and being also.
According to Jesus the Holy Spirit is “the Spirit of the Father” Matthew 10:20. Jesus said God is Spirit, therefore the Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit. The Spirit is designed to operate with the soul or person so closely as to be almost indistinguishable. This is what you are seeing as the spirit belonging to God’s being or person which is correct. But there still is the distinction between the Spirit and soul according to how the words are used in scripture and in the original languages. God the Father is basically two, soul and spirit. Unified with Jesus’ person makes them three, a tri-unity, or union of three.
Also I will remind you once again, that in the OT God called his own human representatives by his own title of "elohim" and you will see this is such verses as Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9 and in Psalm 45:6-7 and also in Psalm 82:6 which Jesus also quoted in defense of his only calling God his Father and being accused of making himself equal with God for it.

However, never once did he ever called any of his representatives by his actual name of Yahweh and that includes Jesus also.
In Genesis 18, God’s representative is referred to as YHWH ten times in the original language in verses 1,13,14,17,19 (twice),20,22,26 and 23.

Wow, you are really blind, for if the Spirit that God says that he would put upon Jesus in Isaiah 42:1 belongs to Jesus' own ontology to begin with, then how does this passage even make any sense at all?

This is a most ridiculous rendering of the words of Isaiah 42:1 and nothing was ever taught of the Apostles of any suggestion of a trinity but instead this is the invention of apostasy from the truth faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints and which was already secretly entering into the churches even in the first Century and as Jude and 2 Peter 2 and Paul in Acts 21 and 2 Thess 2:7 very clearly warned of also.
It makes plenty of sense when you understand that the Apostles recognized that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are unified. That union is illustrated in Isaiah 42:1. We see God who is two soul/person and Holy Spirit putting His Spirit upon Jesus. God is never disconnected from His own Spirit. Jesus said that God had given to Him life in Himself as the Father has life in Himself, therefore the Spirit that is given to Jesus has to be His ontology according to Jesus own words, because to have life in oneself is a quality only God can have.

By the way, where did you get from the actual scriptures what you wrote above in the bold orange?
I spent two years studying how the words soul and spirit are used in the scriptures. You should do the same.
However, your apostate churches have replaced the witness of the Holy Spirit with their own human wisdom and intellect of the flesh and that is why your churches are in divisions that would make the church of Corinth pale in comparison also and just as Paul revealed was already beginning to happen even then and as per 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3..
I agree, there is a lot of apostasy in the church and if they had taken their definition of the Trinity directly from the scriptures and not deviated from the word they would have gotten it right, but they prefer the doctrines of men over how the scriptures say God is actually constructed.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
We will have to agree to disagree.
I gave you then reference from Barnabas. If he was wrong in teaching that the us in Genesis was God and Jesus then the apostles would have corrected him. They all believed that Jesus pre-existed and was with God in the beginning. I accept the scriptures at their face value.
Apparently the tree of life was the source of Adam and Eve's longevity, thus it had to be blocked from them or they would have been able to live forever in their fallen state. The breath of life would not be the source of their longevity only the tree which shows us symbollically that we cannot have eternal life apart from a provision from God.
Jesus' person is not God, He is begotten from God and unified with Him through the Holy Spirit which is illustrated in Isaiah 42:1. Jesus is God through His union with God, that is the Biblical Trinity that is supported 100% by the scriptures.
You don't have to believe in a pre-trib rapture. You just need to pray that you are worthy to escape. However God makes that escape possible is His business.
Sorry but any reference supposedly coming from Barnabas, is not inspired scripture and there is simply no guarantee that what is supposed to have been written by him was genuinely written by him to start with but nevertheless and once again, it isn't the inspired scriptures.

Besides this, I also believe it was Jesus (the human Son of God) that God was ultimately speaking to, but as in God calling those things that be not yet as though they were because once God determined that they would be, it was already set into motion that they would be and thus the prophecy from God also in Genesis 3:15.

By the way, by your very words in the above bold red, you then would admit that men who do not know God through Christ will not live eternally in torment, right?

Concerning the pre trib rapture, my point was that it is a false doctrine and false doctrine is false doctrine, for the Bible says that all scripture is profitable for doctrine but it has to be the truth of what the scriptures actually reveal also and they do not reveal a pre trib rapture of the church and the context of 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 together with verse 51-58 prove this very clearly also.

Death is caused by God's enemy of sin and although the believe has had sin removed from his spirit by the cross, it still dwells within him and this is why he dies.

Therefore only when that enemy of sin that remains within all believers who remain alive and waiting for his return is destroyed at his return, will they not have to die but rather be transformed in a moment and in the twinkling of an eye.

This is why unlike 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 where Paul's focus is on the actual catching away (rapture) of the church, Paul's focus in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 instead is upon the transformation that will take place just prior to it and due to the enemy of sin being destroyed in those who are still alive and waiting for his return and of course what follows would be death being destroyed also and bingo the resurrection and rapture.

It is right there in the very context of Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15 and which have only to do with the end when all enemies of God related to sin are destroyed whether they be the unrepentant wicked who will not forsake their sins and therefore will be destroyed with their sins or sin itself within the believers which God will also destroy within them and while they are still alive and waiting for Jesus to take them home.


The reason why I brought the pre trib rapture doctrine into this, is because it proves that your church leaders are not led of the Holy Spirit by rather by the spirit of antichrist and the same goes for their false teachings of a literal 1000 years kingdom over mortal Jews remaining on this earth after Jesus returns and Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 coupled with 2 Peter 3:10-12 clearly reveal this to be false also.

For when Jesus comes as the thief in the night, it will be the end of any remaining mortality upon this earth, for as both Paul and Peter reveal in those passages, it will begin with sudden destruction that no unbeliever will escape from and it will only end when this this heaven and earth and all within it will be pass away by fire with a great noise.


So you tell me dude, where will you fit your supposed literal 1000 year kingdom of Christ of peace and safety on this old earth for moral Jews when Paul tells us the day of the Lord at Christ's return will begin with sudden destruction that no unbeliever will be able to escape from and will end according to Peter with the destruction of this old heaven and earth?

Those passages reveal that the 1000 years of Revelation 20 is figurative for this present age of God's patience and mercy and grace and just as 2 Peter 3:8-10 also reveals, "for with God one day in this present age is like 1000 years and 1000 years as one day".

So your churches are full of false doctrines and all because of their root false doctrines of Jesus as being Yahweh God and God being a three person being and which the Bible does not teach period.

The Bold in blue only reveals that you are just another tongue of false doctrine on your idea of the trinity and there are many also.

For what you wrote doesn't agree with what the majority of trins believe who post on these forums, although all of them seem to differ at least some in their ideas about it and which proves that it isn't a doctrine of the truth revealed in the scriptures also, for there is no variables in the truth of God's word period.

If you aren't admitting to this, then you would have to believe that the breath of Life that God gave man was eternal life but the scriptures do not support this idea and neither do they support a literal eternal life in torment either and especially not when the symbolism of Gehenna and the Valley of Hinnom was used by Jesus concerning Hell Fire.

No one thrown into the literal incinerator of Gehenna would live forever in torment and Jesus was just using this to express the fact that although there would be a certain amount of time in Hell Fire of suffering for the wicked at the end of the age, it would end in their being totally annihilated along with the this old heaven and earth and never to be resurrected unto life ever again.

Proverbs 37: 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. See also 2 Peter 3:10-12.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
We will have to agree to disagree.
I gave you then reference from Barnabas. If he was wrong in teaching that the us in Genesis was God and Jesus then the apostles would have corrected him. They all believed that Jesus pre-existed and was with God in the beginning. I accept the scriptures at their face value.
Apparently the tree of life was the source of Adam and Eve's longevity, thus it had to be blocked from them or they would have been able to live forever in their fallen state. The breath of life would not be the source of their longevity only the tree which shows us symbollically that we cannot have eternal life apart from a provision from God.
Jesus' person is not God, He is begotten from God and unified with Him through the Holy Spirit which is illustrated in Isaiah 42:1. Jesus is God through His union with God, that is the Biblical Trinity that is supported 100% by the scriptures.
You don't have to believe in a pre-trib rapture. You just need to pray that you are worthy to escape. However God makes that escape possible is His business.
Sorry but any reference supposedly coming from Barnabas, is not inspired scripture and there is simply no guarantee that what is supposed to have been written by him was genuinely written by him to start with but nevertheless and once again, it isn't the inspired scriptures.

Besides this, I also believe it was Jesus (the human Son of God) that God was ultimately speaking to, but as in God calling those things that be not yet as though they were because once God determined that they would be, it was already set into motion that they would be and thus the prophecy from God also in Genesis 3:15.

By the way, by your very words in the above bold red, you then would admit that men who do not know God through Christ will not live eternally in torment, right?



Those passages reveal that the 1000 years of Revelation 20 is figurative for this present age of God's patience and mercy and grace and just as 2 Peter 3:8-10 also reveals, "for with God one day in this present age is like 1000 years and 1000 years as one day".

So your churches are full of false doctrines and all because of their root false doctrines of Jesus as being Yahweh God and God being a three person being and which the Bible does not teach period.

The Bold in blue only reveals that you are just another tongue of false doctrine on your idea of the trinity and there are many also.

For what you wrote doesn't agree with what the majority of trins believe who post on these forums, although all of them seem to differ at least some in their ideas about it and which proves that it isn't a doctrine of the truth revealed in the scripture, for there is no variables in the truth of God's word period.

If you aren't admitting to this, then you would have to believe that the breath of Life that God gave man was eternal life but the scriptures do not support this idea and neither do they support a literal eternal life in torment either and especially not when the symbolism of Gehenna and the Valley of Hinnom was used by Jesus concerning Hell Fire.

No one thrown into the literal incinerator of Gehenna would live forever in torment and Jesus was just using this to express the fact that although there would be a certain amount of time in Hell Fire of suffering for the wicked at the end of the age, it would end in their being totally annihilated along with the this old heaven and earth and never to be resurrected unto life ever again.

Proverbs 37: 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. See also 2 Peter 3:10-12.
According to Jesus the Holy Spirit is “the Spirit of the Father” Matthew 10:20. Jesus said God is Spirit, therefore the Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit. The Spirit is designed to operate with the soul or person so closely as to be almost indistinguishable. This is what you are seeing as the spirit belonging to God’s being or person which is correct. But there still is the distinction between the Spirit and soul according to how the words are used in scripture and in the original languages. God the Father is basically two, soul and spirit. Unified with Jesus’ person makes them three, a tri-unity, or union of three.

The Spirit of God at conversion is joined to our human spirit when we believer and again, your idea of the word soul is incorrect, for the soul is not another part of man's being but what he is as a whole being of spirit and body and if you do some searching in the OT, you will see that sometimes it even speaks of souls as dead bodies of men and women.

Whereas in other passages it is also used to speak of the spirits of men and women as well and therefore it refers to the created being either living or dead and whether the spirit or the body also.

It is also translated in Genesis 1 as "the living creatures" that God created, it is the same Hebrew word for the soul.
In Genesis 18, God’s representative is referred to as YHWH ten times in the original language in verses 1,13,14,17,19 (twice),20,22,26 and 23.

So what?

You best leave what was never explained to us by any inspired writers of scripture for God to reveal unto you when you stand before him, lest you get yourself into deep trouble for giving your own minds interpretation of it and therefore are made to bear the consequences of it when you stand before him.

God being the creator of all things, is able to have created temporary bodies to dwell within in order to shield men from looking upon his glory and in order to speak and appear to men through and you don't have to have all the answers for how that works and nor should you develop answers for it from your flesh either.

For no writer of the NT has ever explained to us that these were appearance of Jesus in a pre existing form dude and therefore your teaching that it was Jesus is a private interpretation according to 2 Peter 1:20-21 and which would also make you a false prophet for teaching it as per what Peter goes on to say in 2 Peter 2:1-2.
It makes plenty of sense when you understand that the Apostles recognized that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are unified.

Sorry but once again, the Holy Spirit isn't another person of God who is unified with the Father but the Holy Spirit is the Father's Holy Spirit and of the same single person and being of Yahweh the Father God also.

Furthermore, your false trinity doctrine that Jesus in John 10:30 was revealing that he is also God along with the Father can be easily refuted from the same author John in the prayer of Jesus that he recording in John 17:11 and 20-23 and where three times he prayed that the saints would be one the same way as he and the Father are also one.

Therefore there being in unity with one another as one has nothing whatsoever to do with both the Father and the Son being the same Yahweh God but rather Jesus was only saying that he was one with the Father concerning the care of the sheep and by the way, this is the context of his prayer in John 17 just like it was the context in John 10 also.
That union is illustrated in Isaiah 42:1. We see God who is two soul/person and Holy Spirit putting His Spirit upon Jesus. God is never disconnected from His own Spirit. Jesus said that God had given to Him life in Himself as the Father has life in Himself, therefore the Spirit that is given to Jesus has to be His ontology according to Jesus own words, because to have life in oneself is a quality only God can have.

Sorry but it is not referring to Jesus being in union with the Father as his being also Yahweh God along with the Father.

Once again, why would God need to put his Spirit upon Jesus if the Spirit also belonged to Jesus' ontology as it does with the Father Yahweh?

Sorry but you are so far off base with this passage of scriptures it is really amazing to me that you would even bring it up as any kind of proof for your doctrine and I have never seen any other trin on this forum use this as a proof text for the trinity either.


Concerning your screwball idea of John 5:26 "for just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also".

The Father has life in himself by default as being the living God and the God of life, but the fact that Jesus had to be given this life from the Father proves just the opposite of your idea about it, for if Jesus was the eternal God to then took upon himself a body of flesh, he would have had his own life within himself to give unto that body of flesh when becoming a human being.

Sorry but your idea about this is absolutely ridiculous.
I spent two years studying how the words soul and spirit are used in the scriptures. You should do the same.

Irrelevant.

 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
You don't have to believe in a pre-trib rapture. You just need to pray that you are worthy to escape. However God makes that escape possible is His business.
Concerning the pre trib rapture, my point was that it is a false doctrine and false doctrine is false doctrine, for the Bible says that all scripture is profitable for doctrine but it has to be the truth of what the scriptures actually reveal also and they do not reveal a pre trib rapture of the church and the context of 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 together with verse 51-58 prove this very clearly also.

Death is caused by God's enemy of sin and although the believe has had sin removed from his spirit by the cross, it still dwells within him and this is why he dies.

Therefore only when that enemy of sin that remains within all believers who remain alive and waiting for his return is destroyed at his return, will they not have to die but rather be transformed in a moment and in the twinkling of an eye.

This is why unlike 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 where Paul's focus is on the actual catching away (rapture) of the church, Paul's focus in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 instead is upon the transformation that will take place just prior to it and due to the enemy of sin being destroyed in those who are still alive and waiting for his return and of course what follows would be death being destroyed also and bingo the resurrection and rapture.

It is right there in the very context of Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15 and which have only to do with the end when all enemies of God related to sin are destroyed whether they be the unrepentant wicked who will not forsake their sins and therefore will be destroyed with their sins or sin itself within the believers which God will also destroy within them and while they are still alive and waiting for Jesus to take them home.


The reason why I brought the pre trib rapture doctrine into this, is because it proves that your church leaders are not led of the Holy Spirit by rather by the spirit of antichrist and the same goes for their false teachings of a literal 1000 years kingdom over mortal Jews remaining on this earth after Jesus returns and Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 coupled with 2 Peter 3:10-12 clearly reveal this to be false also.

For when Jesus comes as the thief in the night, it will be the end of any remaining mortality upon this earth, for as both Paul and Peter reveal in those passages, it will begin with sudden destruction that no unbeliever will escape from and it will only end when this this heaven and earth and all within it will be pass away by fire with a great noise.


So you tell me dude, where will you fit your supposed literal 1000 year kingdom of Christ of peace and safety on this old earth for moral Jews when Paul tells us the day of the Lord at Christ's return will begin with sudden destruction that no unbeliever will be able to escape from and will end according to Peter with the destruction of this old heaven and earth?
 

Biblican

Well-known member
Concerning the pre trib rapture, my point was that it is a false doctrine and false doctrine is false doctrine, for the Bible says that all scripture is profitable for doctrine but it has to be the truth of what the scriptures actually reveal also and they do not reveal a pre trib rapture of the church and the context of 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 together with verse 51-58 prove this very clearly also.

Death is caused by God's enemy of sin and although the believe has had sin removed from his spirit by the cross, it still dwells within him and this is why he dies.

Therefore only when that enemy of sin that remains within all believers who remain alive and waiting for his return is destroyed at his return, will they not have to die but rather be transformed in a moment and in the twinkling of an eye.

This is why unlike 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 where Paul's focus is on the actual catching away (rapture) of the church, Paul's focus in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 instead is upon the transformation that will take place just prior to it and due to the enemy of sin being destroyed in those who are still alive and waiting for his return and of course what follows would be death being destroyed also and bingo the resurrection and rapture.

It is right there in the very context of Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15 and which have only to do with the end when all enemies of God related to sin are destroyed whether they be the unrepentant wicked who will not forsake their sins and therefore will be destroyed with their sins or sin itself within the believers which God will also destroy within them and while they are still alive and waiting for Jesus to take them home.


The reason why I brought the pre trib rapture doctrine into this, is because it proves that your church leaders are not led of the Holy Spirit by rather by the spirit of antichrist and the same goes for their false teachings of a literal 1000 years kingdom over mortal Jews remaining on this earth after Jesus returns and Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 coupled with 2 Peter 3:10-12 clearly reveal this to be false also.

For when Jesus comes as the thief in the night, it will be the end of any remaining mortality upon this earth, for as both Paul and Peter reveal in those passages, it will begin with sudden destruction that no unbeliever will escape from and it will only end when this this heaven and earth and all within it will be pass away by fire with a great noise.


So you tell me dude, where will you fit your supposed literal 1000 year kingdom of Christ of peace and safety on this old earth for moral Jews when Paul tells us the day of the Lord at Christ's return will begin with sudden destruction that no unbeliever will be able to escape from and will end according to Peter with the destruction of this old heaven and earth?
Listen, I am not interested in debating whether there is a rapture or a millennial reign with you. I am on this particular forum to help Jews understand what the gospel is so they can make a clear decision whether to accept Jesus or reject Him Stop wasting your time and mine on trivia and go preach the gospel if you still know what it is.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Listen, I am not interested in debating whether there is a rapture or a millennial reign with you. I am on this particular forum to help Jews understand what the gospel is so they can make a clear decision whether to accept Jesus or reject Him Stop wasting your time and mine on trivia and go preach the gospel if you still know what it is.
And I don't care what you are interested in either, for I will expose the many false doctrines that your apostate antichrist worshipping churches teach with every last breath that I take on this earth and false doctrine is any doctrine that the inspired by God scriptures does not support period.

For those are among the many that your apostate churches mislead people with because of your root false doctrines of the trinity and Jesus being God and God knows, every one of your divisions (denominations) of Mystery Babylon is speaking a different tongue of false doctrines of one sort or another.

By the way, if your time is being wasted, that is your fault and not mine, for you are the one wasting your own time in posting back to me like you are doing and all because you know good and well that what I am saying is the truth.


Furthermore, you are not helping the Jews one bit with your false doctrines about God and Jesus, for all you are doing is helping Satan to blind their eyes even more than what they already are.

So then, if you want to stop wasting your time, then you need to make the choice not to post a reply back unto me and it is just that simple also, for it is what I do when I feel that God is telling me that the times is right for it.
 
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Biblican

Well-known member
And I don't care what you are interested in either, for I will expose the many false doctrines that your apostate antichrist worshipping churches teach with every last breath that I take on this earth and false doctrine is any doctrine that the inspired by God scriptures does not support period.

For those are among the many that your apostate churches mislead people with because of your root false doctrines of the trinity and Jesus being God and God knows, every one of your divisions (denominations) of Mystery Babylon is speaking a different tongue of false doctrines of one sort or another.

By the way, if your time is being wasted, that is your fault and not mine, for you are the one wasting your own time in posting back to me like you are doing and all because you know good and well that what I am saying is the truth.


Furthermore, you are not helping the Jews one bit with your false doctrines about God and Jesus, for all you are doing is helping Satan to blind their eyes even more than what they already are.

So then, if you want to stop wasting your time, then you need to make the choice not to post a reply back unto me and it is just that simple also, for it is what I do when I feel that God is telling me that the times is right for it.
The sin of the Ephesian church that began the descent into apostasy began when they became great spiritual policemen and neglected the first "works" which were preaching the gospel and discipling and I think you are falling into the same error. Make sure your sincere desire to see correct doctrine taught in the church be balanced with those first works. I believe the greatest error the church can fall into and is falling into is eliminating the need for the atonement. That's the error that is the most dangerous because it can cost someone their salvation.

By the way, I agree with you concerning the rapture. Paul was teaching about the first resurrection in Thessalonians which occurs after the tribulation. But there is a pre-trib calling up of the remnant church, the Philadelphians in Rev. 11:12. The two witnesses are called "candlesticks" and according to the usage in Rev. 1:20 they have to be churches. They go up before the last trumpet of the warning period is blown singling the beginning of the tribulation. There is an article on the pre-trib and pre-wrath raptures here - https://cafelogos.org/pretribwrathrapture.html

As far as souls being extinguished and not spending eternity in hell, I am pretty convinced that the devil, his angles and the people who worship and follow them will be tormented forever. But there are two levels of hell (Rev. 20:13). Some are pulled out of hell at the last judgment and others are pulled out from the "sea" which represents the world. These would be trapped souls, "ghosts" who did not know Jesus but were not really evil people. I think these ones go to the outer darkness when the planet is destroyed. They may eventually be extinguished at some point. There is a reference to that in II Edras in the Apocrypha.

As far as the Trinity goes, I agree with you that the doctrine as it is taught is not supported by the Scriptures. The one I teach can be. I was saying that the soul is unified with the spirit and that is the same with God, you recognize that. God has a person/soul and is Spirit. Those two elements are unified and one. Therefore God the Father is two, soul and spirit without being more than one. When He unifies Himself with the begotten soul of Jesus then we have the Three of scripture, a tri-unity of God's person, His Spirit and His image. I think also when we say Jesus is "God" it is mis-leading to Jews and Muslims because when we say the word God, they think we are referring to God the Father and Jesus is not God the Father. His divinity is in His Spirit which as He says is the life in Himself, a quality only God can have and that is where His divinity is found in His Spirit. That is supported 100% by the scriptures.

You have a good day and try and temper your response with kindness.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
The sin of the Ephesian church that began the descent into apostasy began when they became great spiritual policemen and neglected the first "works" which were preaching the gospel and discipling and I think you are falling into the same error. Make sure your sincere desire to see correct doctrine taught in the church be balanced with those first works. I believe the greatest error the church can fall into and is falling into is eliminating the need for the atonement. That's the error that is the most dangerous because it can cost someone their salvation.

You are making the mistake of seeing the error of the first century church to be the same as today when it isn't.

Jesus gave a prophecy about our time when he said the following.


I must work (the ministry) while it is yet day (while there is still enough light of the truth still in the world so that sinners will respond to it), the darkness (darkness due to the confusion of false teaching) is coming, when no man will be able to work (in the ministry of the word).

What Jesus was meaning by this should really be obvious, for he was speaking of a time when false doctrine would so confuse the truth of the scriptures, that no one would listen to anyone who really knows the truth and is preaching it any longer and therefore the true minister will be shunned.


That is why the apostate church is called by Jesus "Mystery Babylon" or as defined properly "Mystery Confusion", because just like when God separated the people into different tongues of confusion in literal Babylon, he has allowed the same thing within the apostate churches in order for individuals to wake up and see the confusion and repent of it and come out of it as per Revelation 18:4.
By the way, I agree with you concerning the rapture. Paul was teaching about the first resurrection in Thessalonians which occurs after the tribulation. But there is a pre-trib calling up of the remnant church, the Philadelphians in Rev. 11:12. The two witnesses are called "candlesticks" and according to the usage in Rev. 1:20 they have to be churches. They go up before the last trumpet of the warning period is blown singling the beginning of the tribulation. There is an article on the pre-trib and pre-wrath raptures here - https://cafelogos.org/pretribwrathrapture.html
Wow, read it again, for the two witnesses are first put to death and therefore this isn't speaking of a rapture but rather a resurrection of those whom death has already claimed and that is a big, big difference. .

This is why your theory is way off base, because the two witnesses or candlesticks are put to death dude and therefore this is not speaking of a rapture of the church but rather of a resurrection of those whom death has already claimed andand I will leave you to seek God for the correct interpretation on that note.

First off, just like the majority of the Book of Revelation, Revelation 11 is very symbolic and highly figurative in it's meaning, you are just one of many who presume to have it all figured out when really you are far from a proper understanding of it.



Now then here is the big difference, for what Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and 51-58 is not at all in any way symbolic or figurative and he very clearly not only reveals when the rapture occurs in regards to the tribulation but also why it will occur and he very clearly tells us that it will only occur after all other enemies regarding sin are put under the feet of Jesus.

Then Paul very clearly tells us that the last enemy that will be destroyed is death and he certainly isn't speaking of death as his enemy in regards to the wicked, not when Jesus will be coming to destroy them because they are attached his enemy of their sins and won't repent of it.

Very clearly Paul tells us that this will be the end, when he shall deliver the whole Kingdom up unto God even the Father, read it, it is as clearly as the midday Sun.
As far as souls being extinguished and not spending eternity in hell, I am pretty convinced that the devil, his angles and the people who worship and follow them will be tormented forever. But there are two levels of hell (Rev. 20:13). Some are pulled out of hell at the last judgment and others are pulled out from the "sea" which represents the world. These would be trapped souls, "ghosts" who did not know Jesus but were not really evil people. I think these ones go to the outer darkness when the planet is destroyed. They may eventually be extinguished at some point. There is a reference to that in II Edras in the Apocrypha.

The only basis for your churches belief about an eternal torment is from the symbolic and figurative Book of Revelations but if you read the words of Jesus, he actually never says that the suffering will be eternal but only the punishment and the punishment will end in the eternal death, of the soul and never to see another resurrection ever again either.


The words "where worm dies not and the fire is not quenched" refer to the two deaths, the first death of the body where the worms keep eating at the dead body until it is totally consumed and then the death of the whole soul in the fire that keeps burning until it is totally annihilated.

Here is what Jesus said about it, "fear not him who is able to destroy the body and after this there is no more that he can do but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".
As far as the Trinity goes, I agree with you that the doctrine as it is taught is not supported by the Scriptures. The one I teach can be. I was saying that the soul is unified with the spirit and that is the same with God, you recognize that. God has a person/soul and is Spirit. Those two elements are unified and one. Therefore God the Father is two, soul and spirit without being more than one. When He unifies Himself with the begotten soul of Jesus then we have the Three of scripture, a tri-unity of God's person, His Spirit and His image. I think also when we say Jesus is "God" it is mis-leading to Jews and Muslims because when we say the word God, they think we are referring to God the Father and Jesus is not God the Father. His divinity is in His Spirit which as He says is the life in Himself, a quality only God can have and that is where His divinity is found in His Spirit. That is supported 100% by the scriptures.

Sorry but the scriptures do no teach any form of a trinity period
You have a good day and try and temper your response with kindness.

Sorry but I don't molly coddle false teachers and attempt to be kind to them and neither will I bid them "good day or God speed" either.

For when considering false teachers, we are not talking about the Biblically illiterate or ignorant here but those who know enough about the Bible to know better but who still believe falsely and still mislead people with their beliefs and therefore I obey 2 John 7-11 instead.
 
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Biblican

Well-known member
You are making the mistake of seeing the error of the first century church to be the same as today when it isn't.

Jesus gave a prophecy about our time when he said the following.


I must work (the ministry) while it is yet day (while there is still enough light of the truth still in the world so that sinners will respond to it), the darkness (darkness due to the confusion of false teaching) is coming, when no man will be able to work (in the ministry of the word).

What Jesus was meaning by this should really be obvious, for he was speaking of a time when false doctrine would so confuse the truth of the scriptures, that no one would listen to anyone who really knows the truth and is preaching it any longer and therefore the true minister will be shunned.


That is why the apostate church is called by Jesus "Mystery Babylon" or as defined properly "Mystery Confusion", because just like when God separated the people into different tongues of confusion in literal Babylon, he has allowed the same thing within the apostate churches in order for individuals to wake up and see the confusion and repent of it and come out of it as per Revelation 18:4.

Wow, read it again, for the two witnesses are first put to death and therefore this isn't speaking of a rapture but rather a resurrection of those whom death has already claimed and that is a big, big difference. .

This is why your theory is way off base, because the two witnesses or candlesticks are put to death dude and therefore this is not speaking of a rapture of the church but rather of a resurrection of those whom death has already claimed andand I will leave you to seek God for the correct interpretation on that note.


First off, just like the majority of the Book of Revelation, Revelation 11 is very symbolic and highly figurative in it's meaning, you are just one of many who presume to have it all figured out when really you are far from a proper understanding of it.



Now then here is the big difference, for what Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and 51-58 is not at all in any way symbolic or figurative and he very clearly not only reveals when the rapture occurs in regards to the tribulation but also why it will occur and he very clearly tells us that it will only occur after all other enemies regarding sin are put under the feet of Jesus.

Then Paul very clearly tells us that the last enemy that will be destroyed is death and he certainly isn't speaking of death as his enemy in regards to the wicked, not when Jesus will be coming to destroy them because they are attached his enemy of their sins and won't repent of it.

Very clearly Paul tells us that this will be the end, when he shall deliver the whole Kingdom up unto God even the Father, read it, it is as clearly as the midday Sun.


The only basis for your churches belief about an eternal torment is from the symbolic and figurative Book of Revelations but if you read the words of Jesus, he actually never says that the suffering will be eternal but only the punishment and the punishment will end in the eternal death, of the soul and never to see another resurrection ever again either.


The words "where worm dies not and the fire is not quenched" refer to the two deaths, the first death of the body where the worms keep eating at the dead body until it is totally consumed and then the death of the whole soul in the fire that keeps burning until it is totally annihilated.

Here is what Jesus said about it, "fear not him who is able to destroy the body and after this there is no more that he can do but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".


Sorry but the scriptures do no teach any form of a trinity period


Sorry but I don't molly coddle false teachers and attempt to be kind to them and neither will I bid them "good day or God speed" either.

For when considering false teachers, we are not talking about the Biblically illiterate or ignorant here but those who know enough about the Bible to know better but who still believe falsely and still mislead people with their beliefs and therefore I obey 2 John 7-11 instead.
First of all I want to say say that you are doing a really good job ministering to Open Heart on the other thread.

But, you are making a big mistake thinking that the admonishments to the churches apply to only the first century. These verses are describing spiritual conditions that are operating in the church today and have operated in every church since the first century. The Jezebel spirit, which is a spirit of compromise is the spirit that is permitting homosexuality to be accepted in some churches.

When you are reading Revelation you have to understand that some things are designed to represent other things. In Rev. 1:20 Jesus shows John that candlesticks represent churches. When we ignore or refuse to consider these clues we get a wrong interpretation. The two withnesses are called candlesticks so they have to represent churches. You said that it is symbolic, their deaths represents the martyrdom of the church and their resurrections a revival among the remnant prior to the rapture. When the world thinks the church is dead they are brought back to life and called up to heaven. That would have to be the only precedent for a pre-trib rapture in scripture. God tells the Philadelphians that they will be kept from the hour and He also told us to pray we are worthy to escape. Whether we believe in a rapture or not is not important, only that we obey Jesus in this regard because He does not want His people to go though what can be avoided if we obey Him.

The concept of hell is a deterrent, so I think its important not to minimize it by leading people to believe they will not suffer the torment of God's rejection. As I said, the Bible clearly shows two degrees of hell and I believe that the devil and those who worshipped the devil will not be extinguished.

Again, the tri-unity of God, His Spirit and the Messiah are clearly shown in Isaiah 42:1. God is two, soul and spirit without being more than one. He unifies Himself with the Messiah with His Spirit. That's it, it's not anymore complicated than that.

You don't have to coddle false teachers, but you are required to minister in a spirit of love as evidence that you are being led by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise you are ministering with a religious spirit which again was the error of the Ephesians.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
First of all I want to say say that you are doing a really good job ministering to Open Heart on the other thread.

But, you are making a big mistake thinking that the admonishments to the churches apply to only the first century. These verses are describing spiritual conditions that are operating in the church today and have operated in every church since the first century. The Jezebel spirit, which is a spirit of compromise is the spirit that is permitting homosexuality to be accepted in some churches.
The first Century church was still a church belonging to Jesus but todays church is not and that is what I meant.

The admonishments of Jesus only apply to those who still belong to him and the churches today do not.

If you want to quote Jesus where he said "upon this Rock, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" as meaning that the church could not be removed from God, I will have to correct you, for this was not at all what Jesus was saying and Revelation chapters 2-3 prove this also.

What he was saying, is that the gates and bars of hell would not prevail against his church from rising from the dead unto eternal life and the common interpretation of this by the apostate churches is yet another of their many false doctrines, for "gates" are inanimate objects and they don't rise up and fight but rather they either close people out or close them in.


When you are reading Revelation you have to understand that some things are designed to represent other things. In Rev. 1:20 Jesus shows John that candlesticks represent churches. When we ignore or refuse to consider these clues we get a wrong interpretation. The two withnesses are called candlesticks so they have to represent churches. You said that it is symbolic, their deaths represents the martyrdom of the church and their resurrections a revival among the remnant prior to the rapture. When the world thinks the church is dead they are brought back to life and called up to heaven. That would have to be the only precedent for a pre-trib rapture in scripture. God tells the Philadelphians that they will be kept from the hour and He also told us to pray we are worthy to escape. Whether we believe in a rapture or not is not important, only that we obey Jesus in this regard because He does not want His people to go though what can be avoided if we obey Him.

Hey, it doesn't matter whether it is referring to the church or not, for it very clearly says that they are put to death by the beast of the bottomless pit and then resurrected back to life and nothing at all is said about their being resurrected.

Furthermore, the two witnesses are not actually referring to the church themselves but rather they refer to the written scriptures and the Holy Spirit by which they are only ingested into the hearts of believers and this is a continuation of what is spoken of in chapter 10 with the little book that John is told to eat.

The only way we can eat God's written word is when it becomes the rhema spoken into our hearts by the Spirit and the written word and the Spirit are therefore the two witnesses and the church is referred to here as the sackcloth that clothes the two witnesses.


If you want to argue about this, then I would suggest you read Zechariah 4:6 where the angels answer Zechariah's question about what the two witnesses represent.

"This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, not by power or by might but by my Spirit says Yahweh".

Now if you take out of this the words 'not by power or might" what do you have left?

The word of Yahweh by his Spirit and these are the two witnesses and the same witnesses as are clothed in repentance symbolized by the sackcloth in Revelation 11 but there being put to death within the sackcloth and then resurrected is not meant to be taken literally like what you are doing with it, but it is spiritual in meaning.


Like I said therefore, the rapture cannot take place until all enemies involving sin on this earth are put under the feet of Jesus first and that includes the sin that still remains within the church and which is why they will die unless Jesus does this and that is what Paul is clearly revealing in 1 Corinthians 15, other wise why did he bring it up in association with the resurrection of the dead?

All Christians will have to die only because sin still abides within their old nature which they still carry around with them, indeed they have no sin in their spiritual man but sin still abides within their being nonetheless and this is what Paul is speaking of in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and 51-58.

In your doctrine on this, you have the enemy of death for believers being put under the feet of Christ before all of God's enemies are put under the feet of Jesus and that is why you are wrong in your interpretation on this and just like the rest of the Apostate churches are likewise.

You need to wake up dude, for death is not God's enemy in association to the wicked, for they must all die because they wont repent and believe, but death is only God's enemy in regards to the church, for Jesus died for them so that when he returns those who are still alive and remain might not have to die ever again and that is why Paul included his words on this in verse 22-26 and before going into 51-58.

Why is it that your trin churches never included verses 22-26 as the context of verses 51-58, for they are part of the context but they never include them because they are not being led by the Holy Spirit in their interpretations but rather by flesh and blood.
The concept of hell is a deterrent, so I think its important not to minimize it by leading people to believe they will not suffer the torment of God's rejection. As I said, the Bible clearly shows two degrees of hell and I believe that the devil and those who worshipped the devil will not be extinguished.
My Bible tells me that there is no fear in love, but that perfect love is what casts out fear because fear itself has torment and therefore what would you say that Hell is a deterrent from anyhow, does God want you to come to him because you are afraid of hell or because you see how loving he is?


Read your Bible, for almost every time Jesus brought the subject of Hell fire into his words, he was speaking this to the apostate and rebellious Jews who weren't going to be deterred anyhow and that is a fact, for Jesus never used hell when speaking to those who were lost of Israel and admitted to being lost.

Furthermore, Jesus never said that those who enter the Gehenna Fire would live forever in torment there but only that there would be torment.

Nay but it is a deterrent from the whole truth of God's word to avoid the facts about this from the Bible and for starters in Genesis, man was not created to live forever with only the breath of life from the Spirit that God breathed into his nostrils and therefore he doesn't have eternal life to live in heaven or hell, for only through faith in God through Christ can one actually have eternal life of any kind period.

By the way, in Revelations it says "and they shall be tormented day and night fore aeons an aeons and notice the words "day and night" for there will be no days and nights in eternity period and this ought to reveal to you that this is symbolic and figurative language and not to be taken literally.

Also, the Greek word "aeons" only refers to eternity when applied to God or his Kingdom or unto believes but the word does not mean forever without end for anything other than this but only means a long period of time instead.
Again, the tri-unity of God, His Spirit and the Messiah are clearly shown in Isaiah 42:1. God is two, soul and spirit without being more than one. He unifies Himself with the Messiah with His Spirit. That's it, it's not anymore complicated than that.

ROFLOL, that is total nonsense, for as I said already and more than once, if Jesus was God himself, then he would already have his own Spirit within him and would need to have the Spirit of God anointing him and as Isaiah 42:1 clearly reveals.

By the way, if you want to persuade "Open Heart" that Jesus is the Messiah, I would suggest that you not try to do that with this passage and your interpretation of it, for he will see this as total foolishness and rightly so also, for that is exactly what it is.

Anyone with half a bit of God given common sense would see that Isaiah 42:1 is referring to a man who God anoints and would never see a trinity of persons within God's nature as having anything at all to do with what Isaiah was saying in this text.
You don't have to coddle false teachers, but you are required to minister in a spirit of love as evidence that you are being led by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise you are ministering with a religious spirit which again was the error of the Ephesians.

Yep and in your case it has to be tough love then because you are not teaching the truth and tough love can look like no love but when it is actually the only kind of love that might help someone in your shoes.

Read your Bible for neither Jesus nor his true disciples molly coddled false teaches with sweet words like what what you think I should be doing, just read Peter's words to Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5 or what Peter said to Simone the Sorcerer, for it was the only kind of love that could be given them.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
First of all I want to say say that you are doing a really good job ministering to Open Heart on the other thread.



When you are reading Revelation you have to understand that some things are designed to represent other things. In Rev. 1:20 Jesus shows John that candlesticks represent churches. When we ignore or refuse to consider these clues we get a wrong interpretation. The two withnesses are called candlesticks so they have to represent churches. You said that it is symbolic, their deaths represents the martyrdom of the church and their resurrections a revival among the remnant prior to the rapture. When the world thinks the church is dead they are brought back to life and called up to heaven. That would have to be the only precedent for a pre-trib rapture in scripture. God tells the Philadelphians that they will be kept from the hour and He also told us to pray we are worthy to escape. Whether we believe in a rapture or not is not important, only that we obey Jesus in this regard because He does not want His people to go though what can be avoided if we obey Him.
I wanted to correct my first sentence in the reply to this that I made in my other post, for I meant to say that there is no mention of any of the witnesses still remaining alive to be raptured and as I said, you are over literalizing this to begin with.

The death of the witnesses is symbolic and figurative for the the written scriptures and the Holy Spirit being once and for all completely rejecting within the repentant church by the ungodly.

In other words, it represents the ungodly putting rejecting the written scriptures and the Holy Spirit by which the repentant remnant church (the sackcloth) lives, teaches and preaches, so they figuratively put the written word and the Holy Spirit to death from before their eyes and the proof of this is persecution against the church.

When the witnesses are giving the breath of life to be raised up from death again, this is when God also reveals once and for all that his what the two witnesses represent is the truth, for all hell breaks loose when they are raised up.

Therefore the terror that happens at their figuratively being raised from the dead is the proof to those who rejected them that they cannot do away with God's two witnesses of the written scriptures or the Holy Spirit no matter how hard they try, for they reveal the truth and the earthquake and the last Trumpet bears this out.

Their being resurrected is when God reveals the final horror upon the wicked rejecting them also, for right upon their resurrection is when God proves once and for all how true they are by the great earthquake that he causes in response to their being rejected and then the final trumpet sounding.

Oh and one last thing on this, you will notice that it says "and the breath of life from God entered back into their bodies" and the breath of life is not eternal life and therefore this is figurative language and is only revealing the final and complete rejection of God's witnesses of the written scriptures and the Holy Spirit and the repentant remnant church who are teaching and preaching by them.

By the way, the 3 sets of 7's, the seven seals and the seven trumpets and the seven bowls of wrath are not 3 different stages of the tribulation as your apostate trin churches falsely teach about it.

For instance, the seven trumpets and seven bowls of wrath both refer to the same 7 plagues that God will pour out on the earth and each trumpet is to announce each bowl of wrath to be poured out and the proof of this can be seen if you read what it say about the sixth and seventh of both the trumpets and the bowls of wrath.

For in the sixth of both the trumpets and the bowls of wrath, the river Euphrates is used symbolically and the seventh of both refer to the end of the tribulation.

For there can be no argument, that when "the kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our God and of his Christ" "it is finished" and the judgments of God are finished completely and which means all of the wicked are dead and the saints who sleep are resurrected and those who are alive and remain who believe are raptured with them into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

The seven seals on the other hand reveal the beginnings of the corruption of the apostasy and what follows all the way up unto the end of the age, when the great multitude who are redeemed from all generations stand before God to enter into their heavenly kingdom.

It all began with that impostor of the true Jesus Christ who goes out on the white horse with his toxon (the bow) and who leads the other 3 horsemen in their destruction because of the apostasy.

Therefore this one on the white horse represents the spirit of antichrist who poses as the spirit of the true Jesus and therefore is crowned by the apostate church to be the true Jesus when he is a counterfeit.

Then, because they replaced the true Jesus with this counterfeit and which is symbolized by his being crowned as the true Jesus, he leads the other three horses all through this age to cause wars and famines and diseases and death and all of which should have never happened to the degree it has if the church had of remained in the truth and not fallen into apostasy from the truth.
 
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Biblican

Well-known member
I wanted to correct my first sentence in the reply to this that I made in my other post, for I meant to say that there is no mention of any of the witnesses still remaining alive to be raptured and as I said, you are over literalizing this to begin with.

The death of the witnesses is symbolic and figurative for the the written scriptures and the Holy Spirit being once and for all completely rejecting within the repentant church by the ungodly.

In other words, it represents the ungodly putting rejecting the written scriptures and the Holy Spirit by which the repentant remnant church (the sackcloth) lives, teaches and preaches, so they figuratively put the written word and the Holy Spirit to death from before their eyes and the proof of this is persecution against the church.

When the witnesses are giving the breath of life to be raised up from death again, this is when God also reveals once and for all that his what the two witnesses represent is the truth, for all hell breaks loose when they are raised up.

Therefore the terror that happens at their figuratively being raised from the dead is the proof to those who rejected them that they cannot do away with God's two witnesses of the written scriptures or the Holy Spirit no matter how hard they try, for they reveal the truth and the earthquake and the last Trumpet bears this out.

Their being resurrected is when God reveals the final horror upon the wicked rejecting them also, for right upon their resurrection is when God proves once and for all how true they are by the great earthquake that he causes in response to their being rejected and then the final trumpet sounding.

Oh and one last thing on this, you will notice that it says "and the breath of life from God entered back into their bodies" and the breath of life is not eternal life and therefore this is figurative language and is only revealing the final and complete rejection of God's witnesses of the written scriptures and the Holy Spirit and the repentant remnant church who are teaching and preaching by them.

By the way, the 3 sets of 7's, the seven seals and the seven trumpets and the seven bowls of wrath are not 3 different stages of the tribulation as your apostate trin churches falsely teach about it.

For instance, the seven trumpets and seven bowls of wrath both refer to the same 7 plagues that God will pour out on the earth and each trumpet is to announce each bowl of wrath to be poured out and the proof of this can be seen if you read what it say about the sixth and seventh of both the trumpets and the bowls of wrath.

For in the sixth of both the trumpets and the bowls of wrath, the river Euphrates is used symbolically and the seventh of both refer to the end of the tribulation.

For there can be no argument, that when "the kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our God and of his Christ" "it is finished" and the judgments of God are finished completely and which means all of the wicked are dead and the saints who sleep are resurrected and those who are alive and remain who believe are raptured with them into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

The seven seals on the other hand reveal the beginnings of the corruption of the apostasy and what follows all the way up unto the end of the age, when the great multitude who are redeemed from all generations stand before God to enter into their heavenly kingdom.

It all began with that impostor of the true Jesus Christ who goes out on the white horse with his toxon (the bow) and who leads the other 3 horsemen in their destruction because of the apostasy.

Therefore this one on the white horse represents the spirit of antichrist who poses as the spirit of the true Jesus and therefore is crowned by the apostate church to be the true Jesus when he is a counterfeit.

Then, because they replaced the true Jesus with this counterfeit and which is symbolized by his being crowned as the true Jesus, he leads the other three horses all through this age to cause wars and famines and diseases and death and all of which should have never happened to the degree it has if the church had of remained in the truth and not fallen into apostasy from the truth.
I agree with you that after the two witnesses are called up all hell breaks loose. Please note that the 144,000 are seen safely in heaven after that event. If you go back to chapter seven you see two groups, the 144,000 Philadelphian remnant and the believers who go through great tribulation. If you mentally pick them up and place the 144,000 in the first part of chapter 14 and the other group in chapter fifteen, you see the fulfillment of chapter 7: the 144,000 are kept from tribulation and the others remain to go through it. The point is, the two witnesses which have to be churches because they are referred to as candlesticks, represent the spiritual conditions of the two churches that receive no correction from the Lord, Smyrna and Philadelphia. The important point to remember is that we need to teach people to strive to be included in that Philadelphian category because they are the only ones who are promised to be kept from the hour. The major error I see the pre-trib folks teaching is that the whole church is going in the rapture which according to chapters two and three only the Philadelphians are going to be kept. I think that the reason the two witnesses who are symbolic of the 144,000 remnant are killed is because God is showing us that this spiritual condition is willing to die for Jesus rather than compromise. There could also be two literal representatives that are martyred in Jerusalem before they are called up. That rapture is also prophesied in the Apocrypha in II Edras.

I don't follow what the other churches teach about Revelation, I did my own study from scratch verse by verse. What I saw was that the period of the seven trumpets is a warning period that precedes the great tribulation which begins in the latter part of chapter 14. Trumpets are used to warn before an impending war. This may be the period of time Jesus refers to as the beginning of sorrows. The plagues that are released in chapter eight are progressive for the most part and reach their fullness in chapter 16 during the tribulation.

The four horses can be seen as a description of the antichrist. He is an apostate Christian represented by the white horse, he is a communist, represented by the red. He has control of the world's finances represented by the black and he is in league with Islam represented by the pale horse which is actually green in the original which is the color associated with Islam., That fits the description of the antichrist in Daniel's chapter 11.
On another level. chapter six shows us the persecutors of God's church, the horses, apostate Christianity. communism, inflated economy and Islam. then we are shown the martyrs crying for their vindication and God shows them a picture of their future vindication represented by the earthquakes.

I belive you are certainly right about the apostasy being the the cause for what we see in Revelation. If the church had not fallen into the five errors shown to us in chapters two and three, the world would not be as bad as it is now for sure. God bless.
 
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