Something that Markk wrote on here, over 2 years ago...

[Bonnie]

on why it is so hard to get Mormons on here to engage with us Christians about their beliefs and history, and why they must deflect, obfuscate, ignore, and then repeat the same talking points, over and over again. He wrote this over 2 years ago on here, about 2 boards ago, lol!

Hey Bonnie, what i am about to write is very important to understand about LDS folks.

If we are going to use the "word" admonish, it needs to be qualified. Mormons generally are good people, like most Christians...folks just trying to deal with life the best they can. It is not like there are these arch-villain type of teachers teaching the folks what to say. Mormons all the way from the top down simply do not have the answers, nor are they equipped to deal with question that are beyond the "talking point theology" we were instructed in. There is nothing deep or exhaustive about LDS theology. I have a few LDS commentary and they are a joke...there is no inductive reasoning within them.

if anything they are instructed more to walk away from a debate than to engage. Back in the day , about 10-15 years ago there was a forum one could debate the top LDS apologist...folks like Daniel Peterson, Ben McGuire, Lou Midgely, and others. These men and women had no better answers than the folks we engage with here. Like those here, most often it came down to ad hom remarks to avoid a direct objective conversation. My current request for a conversation about the BoM standing alone, would be dodged just as it is here.

Of all the Mormons I have debated with, which are many over the years, including those I mentioned above and more...the most open and honest apologist was, and you know him, Daniel MaClellan. At least he makes you dig in and think out your arguments in many cases, and he in one of few that actually know what the Christian faith teaches and what be basically believe.

those days are gone, some fired from their position a the NMI at BYU. The churches "try" at apologetic's failed miserably, the GA reeled them in and there is no longer a discussion with these folks.

My point is that LDS theology is "shallow"...it is based on bits and pieces of truth mixed with JS home made theology that has absolutely no roots in reality making it impossible to dig deep. It is like digging deep in to a fiction novel, at some point it dead ends with the mind of the author.

------------------

Maybe this is why we see these debate "tactics" from Mormons on here so much:

1. Attempt to deflect from the OP
2. Change the subject--often drastically
3. Repeat the same old questions, over and over again, and....
4. Pretend we have not answered their questions or dealt with their points, to make it appear that they have won the debate
5. Ignore our points and Bible verses that put their quoted bible verses into proper perspective, that show that they have misinterpreted and/or misunderstood what the Bible was talking about
6. Make ad homs against us. So far, this has not happened on these new boards, but it has in the past. I know, because I have been the receiver of such remarks, by one or two Mormons on here, though 2 have not been on here for over a year or more. However, this tactic IS rare, and strikes me as being a last resort when the other tactics don't work.

So, ,I hope we all on here will turn over a new leaf, answer each other's questions honestly and promptly, stick to the subject at hand, and not attempt to change the subject and move the goalposts. I am not holding my breath, however, as I have already seen evidence of some of the things being done on my list. Sad.

They avoid discussions here about their theology not because they don't want to have conversation, but because they can't ...once the surface is scratched...they are lost.

Think about this...have you ever, and I mean ever seen OC, or DB or any other members here present a LDS position, lay out a premise, and follow it through? No, and you never will, their prophets and apostles couldn't do it either simply because their theology is nothing more than repeated talking points.

This is why theology is not important inside the church walls. It is why members sleep in class, in church, or google an shop in sacrament. ( a common discussion on LDS forums.)

 

[dberrie2020]

on why it is so hard to get Mormons on here to engage with us Christians about their beliefs and history, and why they must deflect, obfuscate, ignore, and then repeat the same talking points, over and over again. He wrote this over 2 years ago on here, about 2 boards ago, lol!

What I find is a deflection whenever I attempt to discuss Biblical salvational theology.

So--let's engage that--and see who deflects, as far as Biblical salvational theology goes.

Let's engage at the point of Christ's testimony:

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Let's start there--

Bonnie--how do you fit that into your theology?

The LDS adopt those very testimonies as their theology.

 

[Bonnie]

Because you usually do so, changing the subject of the OP entirely, in attempt to keep from having to deal with what the OP shows about Mormonism, its founding prophet, its history, or something similar. But I DO thank you for demonstrating one of the tactics Mormons use, ,that I listed in the OP. Thank you for demonstrating that so thoroughly! "...and why they must deflect, obfuscate, ignore, and then repeat the same talking points."

I am not falling for this tactic, dberrie. If you wish to discuss what Markk wrote, then I will be happy to do so. If not, then goodbye.

 

[Bonnie]

I have noticed, in my over 8 years on this website, certain LDS debate "tactics" on here. I can list them as these:

1. Deflect and change the subject entirely, in an effort to keep from having to deal with what Christians on here have written about the LDS church, its faith/doctrines, and its history.
2. Refuse to give direct answers to even the most simple questions.
3. Ignore the answers and points Christians have given and made to Mormon questions and points, pretending that we never responded--perhaps to make it appear that we cannot answer or deal with the Mormon apologists on here, when in fact, we can and have.
4. Ignore our answers and simply repeat the same questions and talking points, ad infinitum on here, to give the impression we have not answered the questions--when we have, over and over again--and perhaps to make us give up in frustration, so the Mormon posters can claim victory.
5. Resort to ad hominens. This rare on here, and has not yet happened on this board, since the ones that usually do so have not yet returned or maybe been banned.

We have already seen demonstrated on here, very clearly, no. 1 on my list. As well as no. 2. So Markk was probably right.

At any rate, gentle readers and any lurkers out there, please take note of these tactics and respond accordingly.

 

[dberrie2020]

Because you usually do so, changing the subject of the OP entirely, in attempt to keep from having to deal with what the OP shows about Mormonism, its founding prophet, its history, or something similar. But I DO thank you for demonstrating one of the tactics Mormons use, ,that I listed in the OP. Thank you for demonstrating that so thoroughly! "...and why they must deflect, obfuscate, ignore, and then repeat the same talking points."

I am not falling for this tactic, dberrie. If you wish to discuss what Markk wrote, then I will be happy to do so. If not, then goodbye.

The way I read Markk's post, is in this theme, from the OP:

My point is that LDS theology is "shallow"...it is based on bits and pieces of truth mixed with JS home made theology that has absolutely no roots in reality making it impossible to dig deep. It is like digging deep in to a fiction novel, at some point it dead ends with the mind of the author.

So--I'm attempting to engage the Biblical theology, as to the salvational doctrines testified to by Christ and His apostles, in an attempt to show what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--are also found in the LDS church. That runs counter to Markk's claims.

So--here we go:

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That's what one finds in the LDS church.

How do you fit that into your theology?

What do you find in the Biblical NT text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

Bonnie--let's engage that--it's seems to be what Markk claims--the LDS are unwilling to do so. I'm more than anxious to engage you--or anyone else--on a Biblical level.

Care to engage that point? It's not a tactic Bonnie--it's the Biblical testimony of Christ and His apostles. What do you find as "deflect, obfuscate, ignore" about that approach?

 

[Sherman]

I have found this on other sites too. Derailment is a typical Mormon strategy. It is common in any theology brand that is shallow.

 

[dberrie2020]

I have found this on other sites too. Derailment is a typical Mormon strategy. It is common in any theology brand that is shallow.

So--care to address the points of theology here?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That's what one finds in the LDS church.

How do you fit that into your theology?

 

[Sherman]

More obfuscation. It's not the topic of this thread.

 

[dberrie2020]

More obfuscation. It's not the topic of this thread.

IMO--Yes it is.

My point is that LDS theology is "shallow"...it is based on bits and pieces of truth mixed with JS home made theology that has absolutely no roots in reality making it impossible to dig deep. It is like digging deep in to a fiction novel, at some point it dead ends with the mind of the author.

IOW--the accusation from the OP by Markk is that the LDS have a "home made theology".

So--let's examine that accusation with the Biblical testimony--and see which party obfuscates.

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That's what one finds in the LDS church.

How do you fit that into your theology?

Care to engage the Biblical testimony? Or do we get more diversion?

Sherman--where is your Bible?

 

[Theo1689]

What I find is a deflection whenever I attempt to discuss Biblical salvational theology.

So--let's engage that--and see who deflects, as far as Biblical salvational theology goes.

Let's engage at the point of Christ's testimony:

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Let's start there--

Bonnie--how do you fit that into your theology?

The LDS adopt those very testimonies as their theology.

The problem is that this is the MORMONISM forum.
Bonnie is not a Mormon.
So her "theology" is not under discussion here.

We're here to discuss YOUR beliefs.
Your job here is to discuss YOUR beliefs.

So your post above is a PERFECT example of your "deflection", as you constantly try to avoid discussion of Mormonism and instead try to attack Christian beliefs.

 

[dberrie2020]

The problem is that this is the MORMONISM forum.

So--let's discuss LDS theology:

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That's what one finds in the LDS church.

How do you fit that into your theology?

 

[Theo1689]

So--care to address the points of theology here?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That's what one finds in the LDS church.

How do you fit that into your theology?

1) Start your own thread, don't try to steal someone else's.

2) I thought this forum was for discussing MORMONISM. Why are you trying to start an off-topic discussion?

 

[dberrie2020]

2) I thought this forum was for discussing MORMONISM. Why are you trying to start an off-topic discussion?

What is it about my posted scriptures which you don't find as LDS theology?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How do you fit that into your theology?

Note--the crickets are singing.

 

[Theo1689]

What is it about my posted scriptures which you don't find as LDS theology?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How do you fit that into your theology?

Note--the crickets are singing.

Please stop trying to sabotage the OP's thread.

The reason there are "crickets" to your OFF-TOPIC posts is because unlike you, we actually respect the rules of these forums.

 

[dberrie2020]

Please stop trying to sabotage the OP's thread.

This was part of the OP?

My point is that LDS theology is "shallow"...it is based on bits and pieces of truth mixed with JS home made theology that has absolutely no roots in reality making it impossible to dig deep. It is like digging deep in to a fiction novel, at some point it dead ends with the mind of the author.

So--I posted the Biblical scriptures which reflects the LDS theology--and it ain't homemade.

Care to engage those Biblical NT scriptures?

Theo--some here come and accuse the LDS of some foreign theology--and refusing to engage the Bible. I post the Biblical NT scriptures which are found in the LDS church--and what I get is diversion and refusal to engage the Biblical NT scriptures.

Care to engage my posted scriptures--which reflects LDS theology?

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So--how do you fit that into your theology?

It's LDS theology--and what one will find being taught and preached in the LDS church.

 

[Theo1689]

So--I posted the Biblical scriptures which reflects the LDS theology--and it ain't homemade.

Care to engage those Biblical NT scriptures?

I'd rather YOU engage in addressing the verses I bring up, which CONTRADICT Mormon theology.
You know, the verses you keep RUNNING AWAY from, when you hide behind what you think are your one or two "safe" verses?

Care to engage my posted scriptures--which reflects LDS theology?

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So--how do you fit that into your theology?

I'm not Mormon, so "[my] theology" is off-topic for this forum.
And unlike you, I actually respect and follow the rules.

So stop dodging the issues by trying to take control of all discussion and trying to steer discussion AWAY from Mormonism.

 

[dberrie2020]

I'd rather YOU engage in addressing the verses I bring up, which CONTRADICT Mormon theology.
I'm not Mormon, so "[my] theology" is off-topic for this forum.

You haven't posted any verses in this thread--and you haven't engaged mine.

And Hebrews5:9 is LDS theology--not yours.

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[Bonnie]

1) Start your own thread, don't try to steal someone else's.

2) I thought this forum was for discussing MORMONISM. Why are you trying to start an off-topic discussion?

To deflect away from what I posted in the OP, about what Markk wrote.

When in doubt--obfuscate and divert!

 

[Bonnie]

IMO--Yes it is.



IOW--the accusation from the OP by Markk is that the LDS have a "home made theology".

So--let's examine that accusation with the Biblical testimony--and see which party obfuscates.

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That's what one finds in the LDS church.

How do you fit that into your theology?

Care to engage the Biblical testimony? Or do we get more diversion?

Sherman--where is your Bible?

That is all it is--YOUR opinion. But opinions are not facts. I am not the only one who has noticed that you have attempted to drastically change the subject in my OP, probably to keep from having to discuss what it has in it.

 

[dberrie2020]

To deflect away from what I posted in the OP, which shows lots of contradictions in Mormon writings and theology.

When in doubt--obfuscate and divert!

So--why haven't you answered to the OP questions?


The way I read Markk's post, is in this theme, from the OP:

My point is that LDS theology is "shallow"...it is based on bits and pieces of truth mixed with JS home made theology that has absolutely no roots in reality making it impossible to dig deep. It is like digging deep in to a fiction novel, at some point it dead ends with the mind of the author.

So--I'm attempting to engage the Biblical theology, as to the salvational doctrines testified to by Christ and His apostles, in an attempt to show what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--are also found in the LDS church. That runs counter to Markk's claims.

So--here we go:

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That's what one finds in the LDS church.

How do you fit that into your theology?

What do you find in the Biblical NT text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

Bonnie--let's engage that--it's seems to be what Markk claims--the LDS are unwilling to do so. I'm more than anxious to engage you--or anyone else--on a Biblical level.

Care to engage that point? It's not a tactic Bonnie--it's the Biblical testimony of Christ and His apostles. What do you find as "deflect, obfuscate, ignore" about that approach?