Something that Markk wrote on here, over 2 years ago...

Theo1689

Well-known member
True. One point--some of us would be happy to discuss the other poster's comments and bible verses on the Theology or Apologetics board, but not here. I mean, this board is for discussing all things Mormon/LDS.

Have fun? What "fun"? Watching us trying to get you to deal with our points? Answer our questions? Watching our reactions when you do neither, but just repeat yourself? And watching our reactions when you blatantly change the subject away from the OP? As you did here? And on that thread I started about the contradictions in Mormon Scriptures? People who do that usually do so because they do not want to deal with the subjects in the OPs. So, they deflect, obfuscate, refuse to answer questions, deal with the other debaters' points, etc.

My BP is just fine--anywhere between 85/60 to 120/70.

Yes, "have fun".

Religion is nothing but a joke to Mormons.
It is completely IRRELEVANT to life, for them.

They think heaven will be like spending your life in a 5-star hotel.
Christians reject Mormonism, so our hotel will only be "4-star", we don't get the additional benefits.

So why does it matter whether you end up in a 4-star or 5-star hotel?
Everyone will end up great.
Except for the handful of apostates, of course....
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yes, "have fun".

Religion is nothing but a joke to Mormons.
It is completely IRRELEVANT to life, for them.

They think heaven will be like spending your life in a 5-star hotel.
Christians reject Mormonism, so our hotel will only be "4-star", we don't get the additional benefits.

So why does it matter whether you end up in a 4-star or 5-star hotel?
Everyone will end up great.
Except for the handful of apostates, of course....
Hi Theo. It sounds as if you agree with my assessment. :) BTW--your thread on James 2:24 got moved to Apologetics. I don't know if you noticed that or not. Just an FYI.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Care to address my points--and the posted scriptures?

Why, when YOU refuse to address OUR points?
The hypocrisy is strong, in Mormonism.

And as Bonnie has pointed out, we HAVE addressed your Scriptures HUNDREDS of times, over the years.

Yet YOU have NEVER addressed OURS.

I'm not sure how you can live with such embarrassment and shame.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why, when YOU refuse to address OUR points?
The hypocrisy is strong, in Mormonism.

And as Bonnie has pointed out, we HAVE addressed your Scriptures HUNDREDS of times, over the years.

Yet YOU have NEVER addressed OURS.

I'm not sure how you can live with such embarrassment and shame.
Yada, yada, yada. And Bonnie claims the LDS avoid the answers. Go figure.

I suppose I could throw this in:

Bonnie said:
True. One point--some of us would be happy to discuss the other poster's comments and bible verses on the Theology or Apologetics board, but not here. I mean, this board is for discussing all things Mormon/LDS.

Have fun? What "fun"? Watching us trying to get you to deal with our points? Answer our questions?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Why, when YOU refuse to address OUR points?
The hypocrisy is strong, in Mormonism.

And as Bonnie has pointed out, we HAVE addressed your Scriptures HUNDREDS of times, over the years.

Yet YOU have NEVER addressed OURS.

I'm not sure how you can live with such embarrassment and shame.
Thank you for your corroborating witness, Theo. These Mormon posts just prove what Markk wrote that I posted in the OP.

I have archived some things from here that show that we have dealt many times with these points, issues, and bible verses. I also had dozens of links to other posts, which, alas, go nowhere now. :( So I have been making it a point since June to cut and paste more of the content on some of these posts and archive them for future reference.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Yada, yada, yada. And Bonnie claims the LDS avoid the answers. Go figure.

You prove my point.

Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Eph. 2:8-9?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed 2 Tim. 1:9?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Tit. 3:5?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Rom. 4:1-5?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Rom. 11:5-6?

Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Deut. 4:35,39?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed 1 Kings 8:60?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Isa. 43:10?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Isa. 44:6,8?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Isa. 45:5,21,22?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Isa. 46:9?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Mark 12:32?

You LOVE quoting the ECF's.

Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed the ECF's teaching "only one God exists"?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed the ECF's teaching that salvation is by "faith alone"?


I've quoted these for you literally HUNDREDS of times, and you are NEVER willing to answer them.

So you prove my point.


Let me tell you a story.....
About 30 years ago I received an unsolicited email from a Mormon, who saw a Bible quote in my signature on a chess forum, and he introduced himself as a "Christian, a Mormon Christian", obviously with the intent to try to convert me. We developed a good friendship over ten years, mostly discussing our contrasting theologies, and he learned a lot about evangelical Christianity, which he had many misunderstandings about.

I asked him questions, and he answered.
He asked me questions, and I answered.
We shared Scripture with each other, and he tried to explain the Scriptures I cited, and I tried to cite the Scriptures he cited.

It was a very friendly, cordial, respectful exchange. Neither of us changed each other's minds, be we both ended up with a better understanding of the other's theology.

Nobody was "overbearing", or throwing around insulting, worthless rhetoric. He is the ONLY Mormon I have ever met, among thousands, who was courteous, friendly, and respectful. That is why I have a strong hope that God will one day reveal the truth to him, and have him move out of Mormonism into true Christianity.

We have address YOUR "proof-texts" HUNDREDS of times.
Because we love every Scripture in the Bible.
And we are not afraid of the truth.

But you CONSTANTLY run away from the "only one god" passages.
You CONSTANTLY run away from all the "faith alone" passages.
And you refuse to EXEGETE any passage in its surrounding CONTEXT.

Those are all the hallmarks which indicate you are defending a false theology.
But that's okay.... You're only here to "have fun".
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You prove my point.

Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Eph. 2:8-9?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed 2 Tim. 1:9?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Tit. 3:5?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Rom. 4:1-5?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Rom. 11:5-6?

Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Deut. 4:35,39?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed 1 Kings 8:60?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Isa. 43:10?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Isa. 44:6,8?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Isa. 45:5,21,22?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Isa. 46:9?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed Mark 12:32?

You LOVE quoting the ECF's.

Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed the ECF's teaching "only one God exists"?
Please quote where ANY Mormon has EVER addressed the ECF's teaching that salvation is by "faith alone"?


I've quoted these for you literally HUNDREDS of times, and you are NEVER willing to answer them.

So you prove my point.


Let me tell you a story.....
About 30 years ago I received an unsolicited email from a Mormon, who saw a Bible quote in my signature on a chess forum, and he introduced himself as a "Christian, a Mormon Christian", obviously with the intent to try to convert me. We developed a good friendship over ten years, mostly discussing our contrasting theologies, and he learned a lot about evangelical Christianity, which he had many misunderstandings about.

I asked him questions, and he answered.
He asked me questions, and I answered.
We shared Scripture with each other, and he tried to explain the Scriptures I cited, and I tried to cite the Scriptures he cited.

It was a very friendly, cordial, respectful exchange. Neither of us changed each other's minds, be we both ended up with a better understanding of the other's theology.

Nobody was "overbearing", or throwing around insulting, worthless rhetoric. He is the ONLY Mormon I have ever met, among thousands, who was courteous, friendly, and respectful. That is why I have a strong hope that God will one day reveal the truth to him, and have him move out of Mormonism into true Christianity.

We have address YOUR "proof-texts" HUNDREDS of times.
Because we love every Scripture in the Bible.
And we are not afraid of the truth.

But you CONSTANTLY run away from the "only one god" passages.
You CONSTANTLY run away from all the "faith alone" passages.
And you refuse to EXEGETE any passage in its surrounding CONTEXT.

Those are all the hallmarks which indicate you are defending a false theology.
But that's okay.... You're only here to "have fun".
Don't forget the most recent question I asked about Luke 7:50--did Jesus add anything to the faith that He said saved her? Anything at all? So far as I know, this question has not yet been answered.

But these Mormon posts simply prove what Markk wrote that I quoted in the OP. Over and over again they prove it!
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Don't forget the most recent question I asked about Luke 7:50--did Jesus add anything to the faith that He said saved her? Anything at all? So far as I know, this question has not yet been answered.

Didn't you just acknowledge I did answer that question?

But these Mormon posts simply prove what Markk wrote that I quoted in the OP. Over and over again they prove it!
I'm still waiting on someone to answer to the posted scriptures:

So--let's discuss LDS theology as Biblical theology:

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That's what one finds in the LDS church.

How do you fit that into your theology?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Didn't you just acknowledge I did answer that question?


I'm still waiting on someone to answer to the posted scriptures:

So--let's discuss LDS theology as Biblical theology:

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That's what one finds in the LDS church.

How do you fit that into your theology?
Yes, you answered my FIRST question, about what Jesus ACTUALLY told the woman saved her. But I asked ANOTHER question about this verse: did Jesus add anything to the faith that He said had saved her? Yes or no?

MY theology is not the purpose or subject of this forum. The LDS church, its doctrines, and history ARE.If you wish to discuss what I think about those verses you keep quoting, then take them to the Apologetics board, under Theology. I answered you about them and dwelt with them many times on the last 3 boards. I archived one example. Why don't you remember?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Yes, you answered my FIRST question, about what Jesus ACTUALLY told the woman saved her. But I asked ANOTHER question about this verse: did Jesus add anything to the faith that He said had saved her? Yes or no?
And I answered that also:

Yes--of course Jesus added something to her faith--as no one is saved without His grace.

So--are all these additions to being saved also?

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Corinthians 9:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1 Corinthians 7:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Romans 11:14--King James Version (KJV)

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1 Timothy 2:15---King James Version (KJV)

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So--did Jesus add anything to each of those points of being saved?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
And I answered that also:

Yes--of course Jesus added something to her faith--as no one is saved without His grace.

So--are all these additions to being saved also?

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Corinthians 9:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1 Corinthians 7:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Romans 11:14--King James Version (KJV)

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1 Timothy 2:15---King James Version (KJV)

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So--did Jesus add anything to each of those points of being saved?
Sorry, but that was a non-answer. Thosee verse have nothing to do with Luke 7:50. I was SPECIFICALLY asking about Luke 7:50. As I made clear. Here it is, in a bit more context:

Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Now, according to THESE verses, did Jesus add anything to the faith He said saved THIS WOMAN? IIN THESE VERSES? Yes or no?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
And I answered that also:

Yes--of course Jesus added something to her faith--as no one is saved without His grace.

So--are all these additions to being saved also?

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Corinthians 9:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1 Corinthians 7:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Romans 11:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1 Timothy 2:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So--did Jesus add anything to each of those points of being saved?

I guess you're apparently unable to EXEGETE any of them, to try to elaborate on what point you think you're making?

You see, unlike Mormons, TRUE Christians actually accept, believe, and love EVERY verse of the Bible.

So to all those verses you brought up, we simply say a hearty, "Amen!"

Now, I have a feeling that we understand those passages differently than you do. And I have a feeling that you are going to claim that YOUR interpretation is the correct interpretation, and ours is wrong. Well, that simply begs the question. That's why you need to EXEGETE the passages, or at least ELABORATE on what your understanding is, so we can determine whether your understanding is accurate or not.


For instance, let's discuss one of your "proof-texts":

Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


I'm assuming (please correct me if I'm wrong, but you always refuse to ELABORATE on how you understand any Scripture), that you are like most Mormons and claim this teaches that baptism is "required" for salvation.

I hate to break it to you, but it doesn't say that at all.

Let me explain to you why, through the use of a logical "truth table".

The first part of the verse is this:

"He that believeth and is baptized"

This would allow us to fill out part of a Truth Table:

Believe?....|.... Baptized? ..... | ..... Saved?
..... Yes ................ Yes .....................Yes...

The second part of the verse says:

"but he that believeth not shall be damned."

And that allows us to fill in two more lines in the Table:


Believe?....|.... Baptized? ..... | ..... Saved?
.... Yes ................ Yes .....................Yes...
.... No ................. Yes ...................... No ...
.... No ................. No ...................... No ...

There is only one more combination that is missing:

Believe?....|.... Baptized? ..... | ..... Saved?
.... Yes ................ Yes .....................Yes...
.... No ................. Yes ...................... No ...
.... Yes .................No ...................... ??? ....
.... No ................. No ...................... No ...

Now this missing combination, "believes but is not baptized" is the KEY combination which would determine whether baptism is necessary. But this is the one combination Jesus does NOT address, because to Him it is not important to consider.

What this verse is ACTUALLY emphasizing is that BELIEF is necessary, not baptism. Baptism is usually a natural followup to believing, but it is not itself a "requirement" for salvation.

I know Mormons teach differently, but they contradict the Bible, since works DENY grace (Rom. 11:5-6).


You see, that's the problem with your "proof-texting".
You don't exegete anything, you ASSUME meanings, and you don't share your INTERPRETATIONS with your opponents, because you're afraid they're going to point out your errors.

Now, if you want us to address your OTHER verses, try doing some "exegesis" first.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Now, according to THESE verses, did Jesus add anything to the faith He said saved THIS WOMAN? IIN THESE VERSES? Yes or no?
Bonnie--I just answered that--twice.

Here is the answer(post#50)

dberrie2020 said:And I answered that also:
Yes--of course Jesus added something to her faith--as no one is saved without His grace.

If you believe one is saved independent of God's grace--then you are welcome to that view.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Bonnie--I just answered that--twice.

Here is the answer(post#50)



If you believe one is saved independent of God's grace--then you are welcome to that view.
Dberrie, I am not falling for this tactic. Or playing your silly game. I am talking about Luke 7:50. This is the last verse in Luke 7.

"Your FAITH HAS SAVED you; go in peace."

In THIS verse, did Jesus add anything to the woman's FAITH, as to what saved her? IN THIS verse, to THIS WOMAN? Yes or no?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Dberrie, I am not falling for this tactic. Or playing your silly game. I am talking about Luke 7:50. This is the last verse in Luke 7.

"Your FAITH HAS SAVED you; go in peace."

In THIS verse, did Jesus add anything to the woman's FAITH, as to what saved her? IN THIS verse, to THIS WOMAN? Yes or no?
Bonnie--how many times do I have to post my answer?

The answer is--YES--Jesus added His grace to her faith. I don't believe anyone is saved outside of God's grace. No one.

If you do--then have it. If you believe that is a tactic--then you are welcome to that view also.

But you asked me---and I gave you my answer. Really, Bonnie--I believe God added His grace to the woman's faith. Really. I believe that is the only way anyone can be saved--by God's grace. Really. Jesus added His grace to her faith.

Again--if you have another opinion, or believe the woman was saved by her faith alone--or that God saves outside of His grace--then you are also welcome to that opinion.

So--do you believe God adds anything to those who are saved here? IOW--did God add anything to water--when these were saved by water?

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Did God add anything when these saved themselves?

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Did Paul save independent of God's grace? Etc.,......

1 Corinthians 9:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1 Corinthians 7:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Romans 11:14--King James Version (KJV)

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1 Timothy 2:15---King James Version (KJV)

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So--did Jesus add anything to each of those points of being saved?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Bonnie--how many times do I have to post my answer?

The answer is--YES--Jesus added His grace to her faith. I don't believe anyone is saved outside of God's grace. No one.

Where does the Bible teach that God's grace is "added to faith"?
Chapter and verse, please?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Ephesians 2:8---King James Version
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Where does it say "added to" faith?

You clearly don't understand this verse.

This isn't even saying that we saved by "grace" and "faith" (or "faith first", and "grace added to it", as you have corrupted it to try to say).

We are saved BY "grace". That is WHAT saves us.
We are saved THROUGH "faith". That is the MEANS through which the grace works.

They are describing DIFFERENT things, not two similar things that are "added" to each other.

Care to try again?
 
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