Something that Markk wrote on here, over 2 years ago...

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Member
How do you know that God didn't send you the DELUSION that Mormonism is 100% perverted?

What if it's really only 98% perverted? Doesn't that mean that you said one thing that wasn't true, and therefore you have disqualified yourself as a representative of God's church?
Wow, and LDS accuses 'us' of circular dialog? LDS denies His Truth, of that I AM 100% sure of. God is not a purveyor of confusion, but Truth, LDS on the other hand, they cannot make that claim because it is a religious construct, not a Authoritative Source of Spiritual Truth, His Spirit tells me so. Now Jeff, you can dispute that, and I'm sure you will, but that dispute holds as much weight as the location of the Hill Cumorah, BTW, where is it again?
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
I have noticed, in my over 8 years on this website, certain LDS debate "tactics" on here. I can list them as these:

1. Deflect and change the subject entirely, in an effort to keep from having to deal with what Christians on here have written about the LDS church, its faith/doctrines, and its history.
2. Refuse to give direct answers to even the most simple questions.
3. Ignore the answers and points Christians have given and made to Mormon questions and points, pretending that we never responded--perhaps to make it appear that we cannot answer or deal with the Mormon apologists on here, when in fact, we can and have.
4. Ignore our answers and simply repeat the same questions and talking points, ad infinitum on here, to give the impression we have not answered the questions--when we have, over and over again--and perhaps to make us give up in frustration, so the Mormon posters can claim victory.
5. Resort to ad hominens. This rare on here, and has not yet happened on this board, since the ones that usually do so have not yet returned or maybe been banned.

We have already seen demonstrated on here, very clearly, no. 1 on my list. As well as no. 2. So Markk was probably right.

At any rate, gentle readers and any lurkers out there, please take note of these tactics and respond accordingly.
So true!
 

Markk

Active member
I have noticed, in my over 8 years on this website, certain LDS debate "tactics" on here. I can list them as these:

1. Deflect and change the subject entirely, in an effort to keep from having to deal with what Christians on here have written about the LDS church, its faith/doctrines, and its history.
2. Refuse to give direct answers to even the most simple questions.
3. Ignore the answers and points Christians have given and made to Mormon questions and points, pretending that we never responded--perhaps to make it appear that we cannot answer or deal with the Mormon apologists on here, when in fact, we can and have.
4. Ignore our answers and simply repeat the same questions and talking points, ad infinitum on here, to give the impression we have not answered the questions--when we have, over and over again--and perhaps to make us give up in frustration, so the Mormon posters can claim victory.
5. Resort to ad hominens. This rare on here, and has not yet happened on this board, since the ones that usually do so have not yet returned or maybe been banned.

We have already seen demonstrated on here, very clearly, no. 1 on my list. As well as no. 2. So Markk was probably right.

At any rate, gentle readers and any lurkers out there, please take note of these tactics and respond accordingly.
What is not understood unless you lived it is most these folks know something is wrong, they know things don’t add up, but they need or think they need what the church offers and as Mags recently wrote in her exit story, a part of them trust in the leadership, even if the teachings are all over the place. Also, even if they wanted to leave, they may have too much invested to even seriously think about it. “The church” is ones life, and everything pretty much revolves around it.

I have known members that did not believe, but spouse, children, and grandchildren did and to leave would really mess up the family. They might hold callings, pay tithe, do their temple work, and are a perfect members and perfectly rounded and accepted in the church...but don’t believe.

And others, like a few here just ignore core teachings and make up their own doctrine that works for them, and that is okay by the church as long as they more or less keep it to themselves and don’t cause division. They would never hold a higher calling, but that’s okay with the church also.

I am not sure they are tactics for most here, in that they are not calculated for the most part, but more of a natural defense to justify belonging to a church with a very dark side that they can‘t call out when it errors. With Mormonism you pretty much have to accept it all, it is all or nothing in a way, and to call out a GA is just unthinkable unless the church itself has done so first. There are exceptions, but nowhere near the norm.

I
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What is not understood unless you lived it is most these folks know something is wrong, they know things don’t add up,

That's what that "back shelf" is for, that every Mormon has. "This doesn't make sense, so we'll look at that later (never) and try to figure it out."

Also, even if they wanted to leave, they may have too much invested to even seriously think about it. “The church” is ones life, and everything pretty much revolves around it.

This is the cult aspect of Mormonism.
My neighbours are Mormon.
My friends are Mormon.
My family is Mormon.
My boss is Mormon.

If I give up Mormonism, my entire life is ruined.
It's like being Amish.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
What is not understood unless you lived it is most these folks know something is wrong, they know things don’t add up, but they need or think they need what the church offers and as Mags recently wrote in her exit story, a part of them trust in the leadership, even if the teachings are all over the place. Also, even if they wanted to leave, they may have too much invested to even seriously think about it. “The church” is ones life, and everything pretty much revolves around it.

I have known members that did not believe, but spouse, children, and grandchildren did and to leave would really mess up the family. They might hold callings, pay tithe, do their temple work, and are a perfect members and perfectly rounded and accepted in the church...but don’t believe.

And others, like a few here just ignore core teachings and make up their own doctrine that works for them, and that is okay by the church as long as they more or less keep it to themselves and don’t cause division. They would never hold a higher calling, but that’s okay with the church also.

I am not sure they are tactics for most here, in that they are not calculated for the most part, but more of a natural defense to justify belonging to a church with a very dark side that they can‘t call out when it errors. With Mormonism you pretty much have to accept it all, it is all or nothing in a way, and to call out a GA is just unthinkable unless the church itself has done so first. There are exceptions, but nowhere near the norm.

I
I wholeheartedly agree, that's the way of the world. It's how the cookie crumbles.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
That's what that "back shelf" is for, that every Mormon has. "This doesn't make sense, so we'll look at that later (never) and try to figure it out."



This is the cult aspect of Mormonism.
My neighbours are Mormon.
My friends are Mormon.
My family is Mormon.
My boss is Mormon.

If I give up Mormonism, my entire life is ruined.
It's like being Amish.
Exactly!
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Also, even if they wanted to leave, they may have too much invested to even seriously think about it. “The church” is ones life, and everything pretty much revolves around it.
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?" Matthew 16:26
 

Markk

Active member
That's what that "back shelf" is for, that every Mormon has. "This doesn't make sense, so we'll look at that later (never) and try to figure it out."



This is the cult aspect of Mormonism.
My neighbours are Mormon.
My friends are Mormon.
My family is Mormon.
My boss is Mormon.

If I give up Mormonism, my entire life is ruined.
It's like being Amish.
It is. Especially in Utah.

It’s hard to explain, and Mags will get it, but when I was in the process of leaving the church I knew it was wrong doctrinally...I knew Jesus was God Biblically and understood the basics of Grace and what it means, and I had given my heart to Christ...but I was still missing something...there was still a little bit of me that could not let go.

Then I went to a ex-Mormon support group, ex-Mormons meeting and discussing their exit and struggles. The person hosting the group was a ex-Mormon, Carma Naylor (Google her name with “Mormon”)... she was very knowledgeable about Mormonism and Christianity, yet very Mormon in her persona, personality and nature...she could have been my mother or sister in those regards. But anyway to my point, when I left that night I put Mormonism 100% behind for good. Not because of doctrine or alike, but because I saw through Carma that there is life after Mormonism and that I would be okay with out it. God lead me out, but Carma without really talking to me let me know it was okay. I left the cult thing behind that night.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
It is. Especially in Utah.

It’s hard to explain, and Mags will get it, but when I was in the process of leaving the church I knew it was wrong doctrinally...I knew Jesus was God Biblically and understood the basics of Grace and what it means, and I had given my heart to Christ...but I was still missing something...there was still a little bit of me that could not let go.

Then I went to a ex-Mormon support group, ex-Mormons meeting and discussing their exit and struggles. The person hosting the group was a ex-Mormon, Carma Naylor (Google her name with “Mormon”)... she was very knowledgeable about Mormonism and Christianity, yet very Mormon in her persona, personality and nature...she could have been my mother or sister in those regards. But anyway to my point, when I left that night I put Mormonism 100% behind for good. Not because of doctrine or alike, but because I saw through Carma that there is life after Mormonism and that I would be okay with out it. God lead me out, but Carma without really talking to me let me know it was okay. I left the cult thing behind that night.

Taking that leap of faith is a hard decision, because of all the things you mentioned. You have so much of your life invested in mormonism, and so much to lose, and so much unknown about the future if you leave.

I remember Carma. She wrote a book called “A Mormon’s Unexpected Journey: Finding the Grace I Never Knew.”
 

Markk

Active member
Taking that leap of faith is a hard decision, because of all the things you mentioned. You have so much of your life invested in mormonism, and so much to lose, and so much unknown about the future if you leave.

I remember Carma. She wrote a book called “A Mormon’s Unexpected Journey: Finding the Grace I Never Knew.”
Yes, she is a neat woman, along with her husband the recently past away. She helped one of my sister‘s a lot. In my ward she was known as “the lady from Cherry Valley”, the next city over from where I live. And they made up terrible untrue stories about her.

I haven’t seen her for awhile, I pray she is doing okay science Charles past away. Her books/ two volumes are a great read. Her son had a nervous break down at the MTC, and the MTC basically put him is a psycho ward without telling her and her husband. They basically went up and took him home, after a companion at the school let the news out he had a breakdown.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Yes, she is a neat woman, along with her husband the recently past away. She helped one of my sister‘s a lot. In my ward she was known as “the lady from Cherry Valley”, the next city over from where I live. And they made up terrible untrue stories about her.

I haven’t seen her for awhile, I pray she is doing okay science Charles past away. Her books/ two volumes are a great read. Her son had a nervous break down at the MTC, and the MTC basically put him is a psycho ward without telling her and her husband. They basically went up and took him home, after a companion at the school let the news out he had a breakdown.
How awful. She didn’t deserve the persecution. And then the way they treated her son.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Yes, she is a neat woman, along with her husband the recently past away. She helped one of my sister‘s a lot. In my ward she was known as “the lady from Cherry Valley”, the next city over from where I live. And they made up terrible untrue stories about her.

I haven’t seen her for awhile, I pray she is doing okay science Charles past away. Her books/ two volumes are a great read. Her son had a nervous break down at the MTC, and the MTC basically put him is a psycho ward without telling her and her husband. They basically went up and took him home, after a companion at the school let the news out he had a breakdown.
Sorry to hear what happened to the lady from Cherry Valley. That right there though is a real common trait I've noticed in most all cults. I praise God for anyone that makes it out of a cult and is able to heal and be free.
 

Markk

Active member
How awful. She didn’t deserve the persecution. And then the way they treated her son.
He tells the story of her son in the book, it is so interesting. If you have Kindle and amazon prime you can get both volumnes for around 10 dollars which is a steal...I recommend it highly. Carma is very sharp Biblically, and her exit story, while emotional, is real scripture based...she is no dummy. Her father was friend with Dallin Oaks, and one of her sons is named after him...if I remeber correctly Dallin contacted carmaker and tried to reason with her. Again a great read from a gentle kind lady. When I was on my way out I had a meeting with the SMP, and I mentioned Carma, and he said “oh, you mean the lady from Cherry Valley that was having affairs”...LOL, if you knew Carma you would know that is pretty much impossible, never a more kinder gentle woman.

I have a few funny stories...she tells the story of how she and Charles forgot their temple names and had ask whoever what they were. And, I have done a few “classes on Mormonism “ with them at local churches in the past, and Carma and Charles (a little, lets say “plump” guy) would get up and display an old pair of their garments and act out the temple ceremony...they, especially Charles, have a sense of humor and it is hilarious, yet really telling.
 
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