Speaking the Truth in Love to Mormons

[Redeemed]

I'm interested in how to better understand Mormons and how best to reach them with the gospel of Jesus Christ at the center of discussion in witnessing.

I would also like to learn how to witness to Mormons in truth, but also in love that they may come to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.



If you would like to help me please post whatever comes to mind. I'll be posting various things that I'm learning on this thread. This way I won't be hijacking anyone else's thread.

Since I'm the new kid on the block I don't plan on getting into any deep debates. I must start with baby steps. I think my Vivitar gives that away.

I do know that there is no certainty whether you have done enough to obtain eternal life in the teachings of the Mormon Church.

I also know that the Bible offers hope. Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Salvation is not faith plus works. It is faith plus nothing. It is a free gift! All we must do is believe.

 

[Aaron32]

I'm interested in how to better understand Mormons and how best to reach them with the gospel of Jesus Christ at the center of discussion in witnessing.

I would also like to learn how to witness to Mormons in truth, but also in love that they may come to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

View attachment 237

If you would like to help me please post whatever comes to mind. I'll be posting various things that I'm learning on this thread. This way I won't be hijacking anyone else's thread.

Since I'm the new kid on the block I don't plan on getting into any deep debates. I must start with baby steps. I think my Vivitar gives that away.

I do know that there is no certainty whether you have done enough to obtain eternal life in the teachings of the Mormon Church.

I also know that the Bible offers hope. Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Salvation is not faith plus works. It is faith plus nothing. It is a free gift! All we must do is believe.

I think the most important part is to listen to them, and what they actually believe.

We do believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

We also believe we have eternal life.

We don’t believe our salvation is based on our works, but that works are evidence of our faith.

 

[Redeemed]

I think the most important part is to listen to them, and what they actually believe.

We do believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

We also believe we have eternal life.

We don’t believe our salvation is based on our works, but that works are evidence of our faith.

Thank you for that tip "listen to them" that actually carries a lot of weight, food for thought. To really take the time to see where someone's coming from rather than getting all hostile and defensive. That's where I'm going to start.

 

[Theo1689]

I'm interested in how to better understand Mormons and how best to reach them with the gospel of Jesus Christ at the center of discussion in witnessing.

First of all, you need to understand that they have REDEFINED just about all the theological terms. So you can say something, and they will agree, but the two of you are talking about completely different things, and therefore not agreeing at all.

For instance:

1) "Salvation" - can mean simply resurrection. They believe the ONLY thing the cross accomplished was the resurrection of all men. Anything further than that requires "works".

2) "Condemnation" - they don't believe in condemnation, except for "outer darkness" (instead of hell), and the only ones going to outer darkness are apostate Mormons. So if you've never been a Mormon, you're good to go. They redefine "damned" to mean "dammed", meaning that your "progression" has been stopped, or "dammed". You don't lose anything, you just can't get any further. James White tells a story where he was debating with a Mormon missionary, and the missionary got frustrated and told him to "go to hell", and James simply replied that Mormons don't believe in hell.

3) "Grace" - something you merit. You have to do works to merit God's grace.

There's probably plenty more, but that's just off the top of my head.

---------------------------------------------------

IMO, the two most important doctrines that need to be taught to Mormons are:

(1) monotheism, and the one true God of creation, and
(2) salvation by faith alone, not by works.

Anything else is irrelevant.

-------------------------------------------------------

Mormonism ends up contradicting Christianity on just about every level. So there is always something to argue about. But it's important not to get sidelined talking about tangential issues when the crucial issues are left uncovered.

- they reject sola Scriptura;
- they have continued "prophets" (most who don't "prophesy");
- they have back-pedalled into Judaism, with "temples" and "priests";
- Most LDS men claim to hold the Melchizedek Priesthood (!)
- Before they get the Melchizedek Priesthood, boys and men become "Aaronic Priests" (!)
- they condemn paid ministry;
- polygamy is a "true principle", put on hold on Earth because of government, but will be practiced in the eternities;
- married men can become "gods";
- unmarried people will become "angels";
- they have elders and deacons who are immature, single teenagers (!)
- Joseph Smith was a polygamist, who stole other men's wives;
- men become gods (as opposed to Christianity, "God became a man").

They have one or two "proof-texts" for each of their doctrines, but no Mormon has ever gone through the Bible in a systematic way, to discover and address ALL the passages which speak on a particular topic. They spend a year in "Seminary" (for high school students, I believe) studying the OT, and another for studying the NT, but you know very well that you can go through the entire thing and skip a LOT, especially when you go that fast.

There may be some who think it a significant issue to attack Joseph Smith, to try to weaken their testimony, and make them more open to an "independent" view of the Bible. And certainly, all of the above issues can be addressed, but again, IMO it is most important to discuss the nature of God, and salvation by faith.


It's very easy for Mormons to dodge the issues in an online forum, but if I developed a friendship with a Mormon face-to-face, I would try to encourage them to join me in a Bible study, walking through Romans (VERY closely), and walking through Hebrews.

 

[Theo1689]

Redeemed, remember what I said about "redefining" words.

I've also found that Aaron is not your typical Mormon, and doesn't seem to believe what Mormonism actually teaches.

We do believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

I would ask him:

1) "How is Jesus your Lord?"

2) "How is Jesus your Saviour?"

3) "What did Jesus save you from?"

Remember, Mormons believe that all Jesus did in the Garden, is give us immortality/resurrection.

We also believe we have eternal life.

Ask him:

4) "What do Mormons mean by "eternal life"?

We don’t believe our salvation is based on our works, but that works are evidence of our faith.

This is because to them, "salvation" merely means "resurrection", and that is not based on works.

Ask Aaron why Mormons practice vicarious baptism for the dead in their temples, if water baptism isn't a "requirement"?

 

[Redeemed]

First of all, you need to understand that they have REDEFINED just about all the theological terms. So you can say something, and they will agree, but the two of you are talking about completely different things, and therefore not agreeing at all.

For instance:

1) "Salvation" - can mean simply resurrection. They believe the ONLY thing the cross accomplished was the resurrection of all men. Anything further than that requires "works".

2) "Condemnation" - they don't believe in condemnation, except for "outer darkness" (instead of hell), and the only ones going to outer darkness are apostate Mormons. So if you've never been a Mormon, you're good to go. They redefine "damned" to mean "dammed", meaning that your "progression" has been stopped, or "dammed". You don't lose anything, you just can't get any further. James White tells a story where he was debating with a Mormon missionary, and the missionary got frustrated and told him to "go to hell", and James simply replied that Mormons don't believe in hell.

3) "Grace" - something you merit. You have to do works to merit God's grace.

There's probably plenty more, but that's just off the top of my head.

---------------------------------------------------

IMO, the two most important doctrines that need to be taught to Mormons are:

(1) monotheism, and the one true God of creation, and
(2) salvation by faith alone, not by works.

Anything else is irrelevant.

-------------------------------------------------------

Mormonism ends up contradicting Christianity on just about every level. So there is always something to argue about. But it's important not to get sidelined talking about tangential issues when the crucial issues are left uncovered.

- they reject sola Scriptura;
- they have continued "prophets" (most who don't "prophesy");
- they have back-pedalled into Judaism, with "temples" and "priests";
- Most LDS men claim to hold the Melchizedek Priesthood (!)
- Before they get the Melchizedek Priesthood, boys and men become "Aaronic Priests" (!)
- they condemn paid ministry;
- polygamy is a "true principle", put on hold on Earth because of government, but will be practiced in the eternities;
- married men can become "gods";
- unmarried people will become "angels";
- they have elders and deacons who are immature, single teenagers (!)
- Joseph Smith was a polygamist, who stole other men's wives;
- men become gods (as opposed to Christianity, "God became a man").

They have one or two "proof-texts" for each of their doctrines, but no Mormon has ever gone through the Bible in a systematic way, to discover and address ALL the passages which speak on a particular topic. They spend a year in "Seminary" (for high school students, I believe) studying the OT, and another for studying the NT, but you know very well that you can go through the entire thing and skip a LOT, especially when you go that fast.

There may be some who think it a significant issue to attack Joseph Smith, to try to weaken their testimony, and make them more open to an "independent" view of the Bible. And certainly, all of the above issues can be addressed, but again, IMO it is most important to discuss the nature of God, and salvation by faith.


It's very easy for Mormons to dodge the issues in an online forum, but if I developed a friendship with a Mormon face-to-face, I would try to encourage them to join me in a Bible study, walking through Romans (VERY closely), and walking through Hebrews.

Thank you Theo for all that really good information and for taking the time to make available to me.

So much for my baby steps idea. lol
Since I started the thread I better go get my shovel and start digging in. Thanks again
I just copy and pasted your 2 posts into my notes for further study.

 

[Redeemed]

I think the most important part is to listen to them, and what they actually believe.

We do believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

We also believe we have eternal life.

We don’t believe our salvation is based on our works, but that works are evidence of our faith.

I'm sorry I didn't listen to you the first time you told me this(Last week) Aaron thanks for being persistent.

 

[En Hakkore]

Since I'm the new kid on the block I don't plan on getting into any deep debates. I must start with baby steps. I think my Vivitar gives that away.

We were all 'newbies' here at one point... that was quite some time ago for me (2001)! I can't really help with 'witnessing' tips since my critique of LDS theology is not from an evangelical Christian perspective, but I think it is important to keep in mind we are all people with struggles and hopes bound up in our religious (or not) identities and therefore criticism should be tempered with understanding and kindness. I may not always live up to this in every interaction, but I try to. Incidentally, my 'history' with the LDS Church was primarily as a child... my mom went 'inactive' when I was 11yo and returned about fifteen years later (only to go 'inactive' again later), but I never returned. Anyway, welcome to the forums... hope you find them beneficial for whatever reason you are here!

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Redeemed]

Is God Spirit or Is God flesh and bones?

The D&C says God is flesh and bone:

D&C 130: 22-23

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.

The Bible says God Is Spirit:

Jesus affirmed that God is in no way limited to a spatial location when he said, “God is spirit”

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:24).

God exists in such a way that his being is not made of any matter. He has no parts, no size, and no dimensions. He is unable to be perceived by our bodily senses. To think of his being in terms of anything else in the created universe would be a misrepresentation, for he is more excellent than any other kind of existence.

Yet God has chosen to make us, in our spiritual nature, somewhat like him in his spiritual nature. He has gifted us with spirits in which we are to worship him (See John 4:24).

Paul tells us those who are “joined to the Lord” become “one spirit with him”

But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
(1 Cor. 6:17).

As one spirit with God, his Holy Spirit within us bears witness to our status as his adopted children.

When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God
(Rom. 8:16) best chapter in the Bible.

When we die, if we are joined with him, our spirit will return “to God who gave it”

and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
(Eccl. 12:7).


So which is it.. what do you think? Has to be one or the other right? Unless there's some workaround I don't know about.

 

[Aaron32]

Redeemed, remember what I said about "redefining" words.

I've also found that Aaron is not your typical Mormon, and doesn't seem to believe what Mormonism actually teaches.

Curious Theo... How does mormonism define it's authoritative teachings, according to you?
In what way are my beliefs different from my church?

I would ask him:

1) "How is Jesus your Lord?"

2) "How is Jesus your Saviour?"

3) "What did Jesus save you from?"

Remember, Mormons believe that all Jesus did in the Garden, is give us immortality/resurrection.

Why ask me when the church publishes ALL of it's teachings on it's website?

Lesson 2: The Plan of Salvation

Lesson 2: The Plan of Salvation

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Ask him:

4) "What do Mormons mean by "eternal life"?

an excerpt from the link above:

Salvation​

Through the Savior’s Atonement and Resurrection all people will be saved, or gain salvation, from physical death. They will be resurrected and become immortal—that is, they will live forever. Immortality is a free, or unconditional, gift to all people, whether they are righteous or wicked.

People may also be saved, or gain salvation, from individual spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by their faith in Him, by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel, and by serving Him.

Eternal life and exaltation are not the same as immortality.

President Russell M. Nelson taught, “In God’s eternal plan, salvation is an individual matter; exaltation is a family matter” (“Salvation and Exaltation,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2008, 10).

Exaltation​

Exaltation, or celestial glory, is the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial kingdom. Exaltation is a conditional gift. President Nelson has taught, “Those qualifying conditions include faith in the Lord, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, and remaining faithful to the ordinances and covenants of the temple” (“Salvation and Exaltation,” 9). Exaltation means living with God forever in eternal families. It is to know God and Jesus Christ and to experience the life They enjoy.

This is because to them, "salvation" merely means "resurrection", and that is not based on works.

Ask Aaron why Mormons practice vicarious baptism for the dead in their temples, if water baptism isn't a "requirement"?

If salvation is based on "works" why do Mormons teach against infant baptism? If works, not our desires, are the only thing that matter?

We are saved by grace through faith, but we are judged according to our works. (Ps. 62:12; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; 32:19; Matt. 16:27; Rom. 2:6; 14:12; Rev. 2:23; 22:12)

God is perfectly just, and no respector of persons. (Deut 1:17; Deut 10:17; 2 Chr. 19:7; Job 34:19; Matt 5:2; Acts 10:33-34; Rom 2:11; Rom 3:29)
Jesus and the apostles all commanded to repent, and be baptized for the reception of the Holy Ghost.
Baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost must be done by authority. (Acts 19; Matt 28:18-20; Act 2:38; Acts 10:48

Thus, through temple work, man has an opportunity to accept the ordinance of baptism and confirmation for those that did not have an opportunity to receive it in the flesh.

 

[Redeemed]

We were all 'newbies' here at one point... that was quite some time ago for me (2001)! I can't really help with 'witnessing' tips since my critique of LDS theology is not from an evangelical Christian perspective, but I think it is important to keep in mind we are all people with struggles and hopes bound up in our religious (or not) identities and therefore criticism should be tempered with understanding and kindness. I may not always live up to this in every interaction, but I try to. Incidentally, my 'history' with the LDS Church was primarily as a child... my mom went 'inactive' when I was 11yo and returned about fifteen years later (only to go 'inactive' again later), but I never returned. Anyway, welcome to the forums... hope you find them beneficial for whatever reason you are here!

Kind regards,
Jonathan

Awesome thanks! I really like that second sentence:
important to keep in mind we are all people with struggles and hopes bound up in our religious (or not) identities and therefore criticism should be tempered with understanding and kindness.

I don't always Do a good job with it either and when I blow it I feel real bad about it and have to have a little talk with Jesus about my attitude. But thank God we have a God of second, and third, and 70×7 chances of trying to get it right. One of the main things I'm trying to do in this thread is be Is learn to really be more loving and kind and understanding.

 

[Redeemed]

Curious Theo... How does mormonism define it's authoritative teachings, according to you?
In what way are my beliefs different from my church?

Why ask me when the church publishes ALL of it's teachings on it's website?

Lesson 2: The Plan of Salvation

Lesson 2: The Plan of Salvation

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

an excerpt from the link above:

Salvation​

Through the Savior’s Atonement and Resurrection all people will be saved, or gain salvation, from physical death. They will be resurrected and become immortal—that is, they will live forever. Immortality is a free, or unconditional, gift to all people, whether they are righteous or wicked.

People may also be saved, or gain salvation, from individual spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by their faith in Him, by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel, and by serving Him.

Eternal life and exaltation are not the same as immortality.

President Russell M. Nelson taught, “In God’s eternal plan, salvation is an individual matter; exaltation is a family matter” (“Salvation and Exaltation,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2008, 10).

Exaltation​

Exaltation, or celestial glory, is the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial kingdom. Exaltation is a conditional gift. President Nelson has taught, “Those qualifying conditions include faith in the Lord, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, and remaining faithful to the ordinances and covenants of the temple” (“Salvation and Exaltation,” 9). Exaltation means living with God forever in eternal families. It is to know God and Jesus Christ and to experience the life They enjoy.

If salvation is based on "works" why do Mormons teach against infant baptism? If works, not our desires, are the only thing that matter?

We are saved by grace through faith, but we are judged according to our works. (Ps. 62:12; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; 32:19; Matt. 16:27; Rom. 2:6; 14:12; Rev. 2:23; 22:12)

God is perfectly just, and no respector of persons. (Deut 1:17; Deut 10:17; 2 Chr. 19:7; Job 34:19; Matt 5:2; Acts 10:33-34; Rom 2:11; Rom 3:29)
Jesus and the apostles all commanded to repent, and be baptized for the reception of the Holy Ghost.
Baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost must be done by authority. (Acts 19; Matt 28:18-20; Act 2:38; Acts 10:48

Thus, through temple work, man has an opportunity to accept the ordinance of baptism and confirmation for those that did not have an opportunity to receive it in the flesh.

Thanks Aaron I intend to study both sides. It's going to take me a while as it's only day five I have learned quite a bit and I'm gonna check out all the links in your post especially the one on salvation.

 

[Theo1689]

Curious Theo... How does mormonism define it's authoritative teachings, according to you?

The Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In what way are my beliefs different from my church?

I have answered that question MANY times in this forum.
But I find you are unable to treat people with respect.
So you will forgive me, I hope, if I choose not to get into a detailed interaction with you.
The answer you requested is found in this forum if you are truly interested.

Why ask me when the church publishes ALL of it's teachings on it's website?

Because Mormons cry "foul!" when we use your church's website to define Mormonism, instead of "letting Mormons speak for themselves"?

It's the double standard of trying to make Christians look bad, no matter what they do.

Eternal life and exaltation are not the same as immortality.

I'm curious, Aaron... Are you intentionally misrepresenting me, or are you simply not paying attention to what I write?

I NEVER said that Mormons believe "eternal life and exaltation are [...] the same as immortality." I know they are not.

I said that Mormon SALVATION (in some contexts) is the same as immortality.

If salvation is based on "works" why do Mormons teach against infant baptism?

Your question is fallacious, as those "infants" need to be baptized at some point in their lives, or else vicariously by a temple worker.

If works, not our desires, are the only thing that matter?

Where did I claim that Mormons believe "works ... are the only thing that matter"?
The more you misrepresent me, the less likely that it can be attributed to accident, and the more likely it is intentional misrepresentation.

Thus, through temple work, man has an opportunity to accept the ordinance of baptism and confirmation for those that did not have an opportunity to receive it in the flesh.

Thank you for admitting that "works" are required for Mormon salvation.

 

[Redeemed]

First of all, you need to understand that they have REDEFINED just about all the theological terms. So you can say something, and they will agree, but the two of you are talking about completely different things, and therefore not agreeing at all.

For instance:

1) "Salvation" - can mean simply resurrection. They believe the ONLY thing the cross accomplished was the resurrection of all men. Anything further than that requires "works".

2) "Condemnation" - they don't believe in condemnation, except for "outer darkness" (instead of hell), and the only ones going to outer darkness are apostate Mormons. So if you've never been a Mormon, you're good to go. They redefine "damned" to mean "dammed", meaning that your "progression" has been stopped, or "dammed". You don't lose anything, you just can't get any further. James White tells a story where he was debating with a Mormon missionary, and the missionary got frustrated and told him to "go to hell", and James simply replied that Mormons don't believe in hell.

3) "Grace" - something you merit. You have to do works to merit God's grace.

There's probably plenty more, but that's just off the top of my head.

---------------------------------------------------

IMO, the two most important doctrines that need to be taught to Mormons are:

(1) monotheism, and the one true God of creation, and
(2) salvation by faith alone, not by works.

Anything else is irrelevant.

-------------------------------------------------------

Mormonism ends up contradicting Christianity on just about every level. So there is always something to argue about. But it's important not to get sidelined talking about tangential issues when the crucial issues are left uncovered.

- they reject sola Scriptura;
- they have continued "prophets" (most who don't "prophesy");
- they have back-pedalled into Judaism, with "temples" and "priests";
- Most LDS men claim to hold the Melchizedek Priesthood (!)
- Before they get the Melchizedek Priesthood, boys and men become "Aaronic Priests" (!)
- they condemn paid ministry;
- polygamy is a "true principle", put on hold on Earth because of government, but will be practiced in the eternities;
- married men can become "gods";
- unmarried people will become "angels";
- they have elders and deacons who are immature, single teenagers (!)
- Joseph Smith was a polygamist, who stole other men's wives;
- men become gods (as opposed to Christianity, "God became a man").

They have one or two "proof-texts" for each of their doctrines, but no Mormon has ever gone through the Bible in a systematic way, to discover and address ALL the passages which speak on a particular topic. They spend a year in "Seminary" (for high school students, I believe) studying the OT, and another for studying the NT, but you know very well that you can go through the entire thing and skip a LOT, especially when you go that fast.

There may be some who think it a significant issue to attack Joseph Smith, to try to weaken their testimony, and make them more open to an "independent" view of the Bible. And certainly, all of the above issues can be addressed, but again, IMO it is most important to discuss the nature of God, and salvation by faith.


It's very easy for Mormons to dodge the issues in an online forum, but if I developed a friendship with a Mormon face-to-face, I would try to encourage them to join me in a Bible study, walking through Romans (VERY closely), and walking through Hebrews.

I'm putting everything else on hold And studying as per your advice:

Study Romans And Hebrews

(1) monotheism, and the one true God of creation, and
(2) salvation by faith alone, not by works.

 

[Theo1689]

I'm interested in how to better understand Mormons and how best to reach them with the gospel of Jesus Christ at the center of discussion in witnessing.

I would also like to learn how to witness to Mormons in truth, but also in love that they may come to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

A couple more observations and pieces of advice...

1) A discussion forum is a VERY poor platform to change someone's beliefs. Everyone is on the defensive, with their heels dug in, and they don't like having to admit they're wrong in front of other people. Many people post here for the benefit of the lurkers. And for those who hold the beliefs, we can still plant seeds, that may very well germinate later.

2) For in-person discussions, as well as online discussions, it's often not a good idea to try to force someone to answer a question. If they don't have an immediate answer, that's okay, tell them they can think about it and perhaps get back to you later. They don't have to give you the answer, they simply have to work it out for themselves. Putting them on the spot may cause them to dig into a ridiculous conclusion, just to save face. They are far more likely to think about it later on if you leave it open, rather than trying to force a conclusion on the spot.

 

[Aaron32]

So you will forgive me, I hope, if I choose not to get into a detailed interaction with you.

Ditto!

 

[brotherofJared]

I'm interested in how to better understand Mormons

Sorry, but I just can't see that statement as being genuine.

how best to reach them with the gospel of Jesus Christ at the center of discussion in witnessing.

Funny, That's what we would like to do with everyone as well. Isn't that what we're all here to do? The problem is, you can't discuss your beliefs in this forum. It's against the rules. No evangelizing in the Mormon forum. There are other forums for that.

I would also like to learn how to witness to Mormons in truth

First, learn the truth, and second, witness the truth. If there is truth, then the Holy Ghost will do the rest. But, if you don't have any truth, then there's not much you can do.

I do know that there is no certainty whether you have done enough to obtain eternal life in the teachings of the Mormon Church.

You KNOW that? Please explain how you know that.

I also know that the Bible offers hope. Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Uh huh. But do you also know that the works Paul is talking about in Eph 2:8-9 is circumcision?

Salvation is not faith plus works.

It very much is faith plus works. Without works there is no faith.

It is faith plus nothing.

Faith plus nothing is dead faith.

It is a free gift! All we must do is believe.

We have that covered. So, I guess there's no reason to have your discussion.

 

[brotherofJared]

Is God Spirit or Is God flesh and bones?

God the Father is a resurrected being, just like Christ now is.
If Jesus Christ has a body of flesh and bone, so does the Father.

 

[Redeemed]

A couple more observations and pieces of advice...

1) A discussion forum is a VERY poor platform to change someone's beliefs. Everyone is on the defensive, with their heels dug in, and they don't like having to admit they're wrong in front of other people. Many people post here for the benefit of the lurkers. And for those who hold the beliefs, we can still plant seeds, that may very well germinate later.

2) For in-person discussions, as well as online discussions, it's often not a good idea to try to force someone to answer a question. If they don't have an immediate answer, that's okay, tell them they can think about it and perhaps get back to you later. They don't have to give you the answer, they simply have to work it out for themselves. Putting them on the spot may cause them to dig into a ridiculous conclusion, just to save face. They are far more likely to think about it later on if you leave it open, rather than trying to force a conclusion on the spot.

Thanks again Theo. Thanks for sharing your insight and given me a good head start on my studying. Once again I'm going to copy and paste the post above into my notes. Then the rest of the day studying Romans And Hebrews.

Romans should be easy for me as that's my favorite book in the Bible as is Romans chapter 8 my favorite chapter in the Bible. But I want to take a look at it with a new perspective.

I've already started with Hebrews which I'm also quite familiar with and I will be jumping back into that.

(1) monotheism, and the one true God of creation, I started studying this one out yesterday.
(2) salvation by faith alone, not by works. pretty familiar with this one but I will be studying it out again in regards with witnessing.

I'm so blessed that you took the time and effort to get me going down the right path with all this information, I really appreciate it. I'm definitely gonna have a fun day. I hope you do too.

 

[Redeemed]

Sorry, but I just can't see that statement as being genuine.

Funny, That's what we would like to do with everyone as well. Isn't that what we're all here to do? The problem is, you can't discuss your beliefs in this forum. It's against the rules. No evangelizing in the Mormon forum. There are other forums for that.

First, learn the truth, and second, witness the truth. If there is truth, then the Holy Ghost will do the rest. But, if you don't have any truth, then there's not much you can do.

You KNOW that? Please explain how you know that.

Uh huh. But do you also know that the works Paul is talking about in Eph 2:8-9 is circumcision?

It very much is faith plus works. Without works there is no faith.

Faith plus nothing is dead faith.

We have that covered. So, I guess there's no reason to have your discussion.

Thank you for contributing I appreciate your input. I read and thought about everything in your post and it encouraged me to continue my study.