spirit brothers and sisters?

I like how you use the word prophet erroneously. It exposes the intent of your posts, the intent to deceive. Pratt was never the prophet. His authority as a prophet was only effective when in the quorum and then only with unanimous concurrence.
Yes he was according to LDS theology, he was called, set apart, and sustained as "prophet, seer, and revelator." And if you want to start a thread about this we can see how he was next in line to become the president of the church, who is the lead prophet, seeing, and revelator, but BY had issues with Pratt, mainly because of his opposition to Adam being God.

All 15 of the top GA are apostles, prophets, seer's, and revelators....of these there are three to four presidents at any given time.

My use of the word prophet is to show and highlight of ignorance and disrespect of LDS authority. Would it make a difference and make these men less authorities if I just called them apostles?
 
He [God] created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be. Brigham Young
That referse to having human children, not spirits. Where do you see anything in that quote that refers to spirit children?
LOL...It states that God created man, just like human children....which by sexual procreation. And, BY is clear that this is true in heaven, and earth....and in eternities to come.

I suggest you read the PoGP

Moses 3:5:7 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air; But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.
Re-read what By taught, and keep in mind in his mind God was Adam, and how all things were created spirituality first. So you either have a huge contradiction in LDS theology, in the D&C, Book of Moses, Book of Abraham....etc. or you concede as the church has done that all things were spirit matter/element, including man's intelligence.


BoJ....you just can't get around that the LDS church teaches through their standard works that sex is eternal and that it is how mankind is created spiritually by procreation from intelligent elements/matter.

If not you have to pick and choose what standard work is correct, and what is false....as an example is Moses 3:3:7 correct/false, or is D&C 93:29 correct /false

D&C 93 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Also keep in mind that Joseph taught....


"I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man. … It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead,—namely, the soul—the mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine; I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don’t believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. …"

"I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits


The GA, and all the prophets I have ben pasting understand this problem, and why they teach man is begotten just a BY stated, like folks do here, by sexual relations.
 
and they were brought forth and lived with him. Then he commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as he had been created in this flesh himself"

Let we quote this partial sentence of BY, in a more complete context for you......


Now to the facts in the case; all the difference between Jesus Christ and any other man that ever lived on the earth, from the days of Adam until now, is simply this, the Father, after He had once been in the flesh, and lived as we live, obtained His exaltation, attained to thrones, gained the ascendancy over principalities and powers, and had the knowledge and power to create—to bring forth and organize the elements upon natural principles. This He did after His ascension, or His glory, or His eternity, and was actually classed with the Gods, with the beings who create, with those who have kept the celestial law while in the flesh, and again obtained their bodies. Then He was prepared to commence the work of creation, as the Scriptures teach. It is all here in the Bible; I am not telling you a word but what is contained in that book.

Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the coarse material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.


When the time came that His firstborn, the Savior, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favored that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Savior was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me. And a difference there is between our Father and us consists in that He has gained His exaltation, and has obtained eternal lives. The principle of eternal lives is an eternal existence, eternal duration, eternal exaltation. Endless are His kingdoms, endless His thrones and His dominions, and endless are His posterity; they never will cease to multiply from this time henceforth and forever
.BY JoD 4: 215-221

BOJ, I hope you read this in context and not just what I highlighted....there is no way around he talking about sexual intercourse. He states clearly that he came down to have sex with Mary instead of another man doing so, in a natural way. Begat means just that, intercourse.
 
Brigham Young taught that however we were begotten as spirits, we were "brought forth and lived with him". This is pretty standard LDS theology. During this time, as spirits, we learned and matured. This all fits into the standard repeated theology that you think means have sex to procreate spirits, "born and begotten and raised to maturity" not none of it describes how that occurs.
Read the full quote...he said they were begat in a natural way....and "brought forth" means born, as we know from what the church teaches and what the prophet and president Joesph F, Smith taught....begotten and born.

There is not context in anything you write. What is the natural way to begat a child BoJ?
 
???

🤔

🥱

Still kicking the can down the road... Is this going anywhere?

And?

No duh. And what do you think point of that is?

No prophet has ever said that. Once again, you're parroting someone else's argument that simply isn't true. @Markk is quoting Brigham Young making reference to my point, which is that in heaven, those who are married according to God's promise, will have children exactly the same way we have children now.

I know that's difficult to comprehend even though it shouldn't be since we already know how that works. "There is no other process of creation...". But what you want to do is take the same process that we use to have children and making it into a process that creates something different. Spirits aren't created. They are eternal. Humans are created beings - they are created by forming the soul, joining spirit which has always existed with matter, which has always existed. That only happens in the womb. It will never happen anywhere else - not on earth and not in heaven.

No, it's not not even close.
Exactly what kind of bodies do you think God is creating in heaven? You say they’re not spirit children. What are they? Human? If so, why would they need to come to an earth to get another body? What kind of children do you think you’d be having as a god? Human? There would be no need for earth. What is the point?

You think we didn’t have a soul in the pre-existence? You can’t have a human body without a soul. So what were we, zombies?
 
Brigham Young taught that however we were begotten as spirits, we were "brought forth and lived with him". This is pretty standard LDS theology.
"Brought forth" means born after being begotten....

First, the philosophy of man upon this earth. This cannot be learned by studying the sciences of mankind, it is only understood by the revelations of God to ourselves. I will give you a part of my own visions upon this matter. Mankind is composed of two distinct elements; the first is a spiritual organization in eternity, the second is a natural organization on this earth, formed out of the material of which this earth is composed. Man is first spiritual, then temporal. As it is written in the revelations of God to man, all things were first created spiritual, and secondly temporal.

That is, spirits were begotten, born and educated in the celestial world, and were brought forth by celestial bodies. By tracing this subject a little we might understand how this is brought about. The spirits before inhabiting bodies are as pure and holy as the angels or as the gods, they know no evil. This, their first estate, is the commencement of their experience.
Brigham Young Oct 8th, 1876 fall General Conference.
 
Yes he was according to LDS theology, he was called, set apart, and sustained as "prophet, seer, and revelator."
He was never the prophet. Once again, you're only exposing how much you don't know about what we believe.
And if you want to start a thread about this we can see how he was next in line
Regardless he was never at the head of that line. He was part of a quorum whose authority to receive revelation for the church only occurs if the prophet should die.
BY had issues with Pratt, mainly because of his opposition to Adam being God.
It doesn't matter if Brigham Young had issues with Pratt or not. Pratt wasn't the prophet.
All 15 of the top GA are apostles, prophets, seer's, and revelators....of these there are three to four presidents at any given time.
So? Only one has authority to receive revelation for the church.
 
LOL...It states that God created man, just like human children..
LOL. Yes. It does. And the man he created was Adam and when he created Adam, he created him just like we create human children. :rolleyes: Do yourself a favor and learn from someone who is a Mormon and knows that Brigham Young was teaching.
And, BY is clear that this is true in heaven, and earth....and in eternities to come.
Right. He was very clear. How may spirit children have you ever seen created on earth? None, right? So, how do you figure that he's talking about spirits?
I suggest you read the PoGP
I don't think any of my suggestions will work. You can't even figure out what Brigham Young is talking about even when it has been explained to you.
For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth.
And in the LDS vernacular, this means organized. It does not mean, poofed things into existence.
had created all the children of men
Again, organized. All spirits are eternal. All that will exist already exists. There will never be another one nor will any of them disappear.
formed man from the dust of the ground,
This ties directly into Brigham Young's statement, from the dust of the ground, the same way we make children from the dust of the ground. Nothing new there.
all things were before created
O R G A N I Z E D. ;)
 
BoJ....you just can't get around that the LDS church teaches
Marrk, The LDS church doesn't teach that. That is all in your head.
sex is eternal
Sex is eternal and whenever it occurs, whether in heaven or on earth, sex produces flesh and bone children. It will never produce anything else.
If not you have to pick and choose what standard work is correct, and what is false....as an example is Moses 3:3:7 correct/false, or is D&C 93:29 correct /false
They are both correct. You aren't.
D&C 93 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
Intelligence is synonymous with spirit. See Abr 3:18
The GA, and all the prophets I have ben pasting understand this problem
They understand it, but you don't.
why they teach man is begotten just a BY stated
If they teach what Brigham Young taught, then they also would understand that sex produces physical flesh and bone children, not spirits.
like folks do here, by sexual relations.
folks here, when they have sexual relations, have physical flesh and bone children, just like they will there.
 
Now to the facts in the case
Something you are either completely unaware of or just ignore. Namely, when we have sex here, we produce physical children. That's a fact. We don't make spirits here. He's using the same logic that I use. There isn't a woman anywhere that has ever produced a child without a human sperm donor. IOW, both the father and the mother have to be human to make a human child.
the Father came Himself and favored that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it
IOW, the Father, is H U M A N with a body of flesh and bone. And how did he get his body?
He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself
IN THE FLESH. And how is flesh bone made? by having sex. We do it all the time.
BOJ, I hope you read this in context and not just what I highlighted..
I did. Nothing in any of that explains how spirits are begotten. Sex produces flesh and bone. Now I see the reference to the Father being flesh and producing Jesus with Mary. I don't see him explaining how that union actually took place. I believe it's not relevant. We only need to know that it was God's seed that impregnated Mary to conceive Jesus. And that it was always the way humans with bodies of flesh and bone are born. Spirits... we have no details on it.
 
Read the full quote...he said they were begat in a natural way
Yep. The "natural way" isn't used in any of those quotes. That's your view, not theirs.
to bring forth and organize the elements upon natural principles
This is one of the places where "natural" was used. He's talking about physical children there.
natural organization
This is another place, he is again, talking about physical children.
naturally upon the face of the earth
This also refers to physical children of flesh and bone.
and "brought forth" means born
I don't need you to tell me what bring forth means. It say sit right there. You, however, insist that beget always means sex or the result of sex. That is not true. There are no details about how they were brought forth, only that they were. If sex is involved, it's going to produce a flesh and bone child, not a spirit.
 
Exactly what kind of bodies do you think God is creating in heaven?
The kind that Adam and Eve had. If you were paying attention, you'd know that.
You say they’re not spirit children
Spirits are not created or made, they are eternal, without beginning. We have no doctrine that explains how they become spirit children to God.
What are they? Human?
I said they were human. They have the same DNA that God has. We have the same DNA that God has.
If so, why would they need to come to an earth to get another body?
Doh. They didn't get another body. They got kicked out of the garden with the body they had. They then had all the children of the earth. Sex between humans only produces humans. It does not produce spirits.
What kind of children do you think you’d be having as a god? Human?
Duh. I'd be having the same kind of children God has.
There would be no need for earth. What is the point?
God did not have sex to create all of us. He created Adam. Some other god created Eve. Both were conceived exactly the same way we were conceived. They in turn had sex and had children as a result, all flesh and bone. Have you ever heard of this before?
You think we didn’t have a soul in the pre-existence?
No. I think spirit and body joined makes the soul of man. Without our bodies, what are we? We're spirits, right? That's what we were before we were given bodies.
You can’t have a human body without a soul.
:rolleyes: I know that.
So what were we, zombies?
Spirits. Have you caught up with the discussion yet?
 
"Brought forth" means born after being begotten....
No. It doesn't. It means, ummmm.... get this, it means - "brought forth".
Mankind is composed of two distinct elements; the first is a spiritual organization in eternity, the second is a natural organization on this earth, formed out of the material of which this earth is composed
Yep. That would be physical flesh and bone humans.
the first is a spiritual organization in eternity
Yep. eternal spiritual being. Spirit, not created or made, eternal.
spirits were begotten, born and educated in the celestial world, and were brought forth by celestial bodies
Yep. but there is no detail about how those spirits were begotten, but we know it wasn't through sex because when humans have sex, they make physical flesh and bone beings.
By tracing this subject a little we might understand how this is brought about. The spirits before inhabiting bodies are as pure and holy as the angels or as the gods, they know no evil. This, their first estate, is the commencement of their experience.
Yea. I'm not seeing sex anywhere in there. You do. You imagine that if it says beget, it means sex. I don't, especially since spirits are eternal and have no beginning. They already exist. Where else in all of creation to we see beings that already exist but are begotten sons and daughters to God? Maybe that's what beget means.
 
He was never the prophet. Once again, you're only exposing how much you don't know about what we believe.
Well you are again wrong. from Joseph's journal....

After an intermission of 20, minutes374 the servises of the day were resumed, by singing Adam ondi ahman.375 I then made a short address and called upon the several quorums, and all the congregation of saints to acknowledge the Presidency as Prophets and Seers, and uphold them by their prayers, they all covenanted to do so by rising; I then called upon the quorums and congregation of saints to acknowledge the 12 [p. 175] Apostles who were present as Prophets and Seers and special witnesses to all the nations of the earth, holding the keys of the kingdom, to unlock it or cause it to be done among all nations them; and uphold them by their prayers, which they assented to by rising,3 Here
 
I then called upon the quorums and congregation of saints to acknowledge the 12 [p. 175] Apostles who were present as Prophets and Seers and special witnesses to all the nations of the earth, holding the keys of the kingdom, to unlock it or cause it to be done among all nations them; and uphold them by their prayers, which they assented to by rising,
All the above is true, but you have not given the context fully,,,,,

Revelation for the Church​

When Joseph prayed about Hiram’s revelations, the Lord taught, “No one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant [the prophet]”

 
Regardless he was never at the head of that line. He was part of a quorum whose authority to receive revelation for the church only occurs if the prophet should die.

I never said said he was the head of the church, or president of the church. I simply stated he is a prophet, seer and revelator, which he is according to the LDS church.

Are you now asserting the LDS church teaches that a apostle, a prophet seer and revelator, can not receive revelation? The president of the church who is also a prophet seer and revelator is the only one that holds all the keys of the PH. What about discernment and personal revelation?
 
I then called upon the quorums and congregation of saints to acknowledge the 12 [p. 175] Apostles who were present as Prophets and Seers and special witnesses to all the nations of the earth, holding the keys of the kingdom, to unlock it or cause it to be done among all nations them; and uphold them by their prayers, which they assented to by rising,
All the above is true, but you have not given the context fully,,,,,

Revelation for the Church​

When Joseph prayed about Hiram’s revelations, the Lord taught, “No one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant [the prophet]”

Ralf what is your point? Are you just saying that LDS apostles, prophets seer's and revelators just spew nonsense? Expound on what your point is.
 
Ralf what is your point? Are you just saying that LDS apostles, prophets seer's and revelators just spew nonsense? Expound on what your point is.
Revelation for the Church and the world comes thru the President of the Church, re-read my post and next time do the research with better context...
 
It doesn't matter if Brigham Young had issues with Pratt or not. Pratt wasn't the prophet.
The why was he sustained as one? Why you take on these arguments is beyond me.

And it is history and important to many that Pratt was next in line to the president, until Brigham changed the rules to get Taylor in, instead.
 
Revelation for the Church and the world comes thru the President of the Church, re-read my post and next time do the research with better context...
So the you believe there is no need for the 14 other brethren? And every time you mention a teaching by any LDS authority other that the president of the church, I can call you out as it being nonsense?

And when you sustain them as a prophet, seer, and revelator, it is just a lie with no substance?

Please elaborate if you can.
 
Back
Top