Spiritual death and physical death

squirrelyguy

Active member
How do you reconcile the idea of “separation” with the biblical attribute of God’s Omnipresence?
I think I can best answer your question by asking another question. When Adam sinned and God came to him in Gen. 3:9 asking “Where are you,” was God seeking information?
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
No. God was seeking a Confession...
True, but why would He try to extract a confession by starting off with this question? He could have been more direct by asking “What is this you have done” (which He did end up asking). Was He not making a point about a separation that now existed between Him and man?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
True, but why would He try to extract a confession by starting off with this question? He could have been more direct by asking “What is this you have done” (which He did end up asking). Was He not making a point about a separation that now existed between Him and man?
Sounds right. God often condescends and gets on a knee like speaking to a little child, in order to communicate to us. On our level. Like asking us what we're doing when he knows we have our hand in the cookies...
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
Spirit relates to spiritual things , understanding them which can only happen via the new birth . Those who are dead spiritually cannot respond , comprehend or experience Spiritual truth as Paul says it’s foolishness to them.
This is slightly off topic, but you’re using Paul’s words in 1 Cor. 2:6-16 to make a point that Paul isn’t making. The way to become “spiritual” as Paul uses the term is not just by becoming a Christian, but a mature Christian. This becomes apparent in 3:1 when he transitions by saying “And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.” He equivocates a babe in Christ with a carnal man.

The solution to the problem is to receive the Holy Spirit. Not only does this not happen to unbelievers, but it doesn’t even happen automatically for Christians! While there are other passages that suggest it was normative for the apostles to impart the Holy Spirit through baptism, prayer, and the laying on of their hands (Acts 8:14-17, 19:1-6), here in 1 Cor. 3:1 Paul connects the receipt of the Holy Spirit as being a product of Christian maturity.

Thus it cannot be true that the problem Paul is addressing is any supposed inability of an unsaved man to believe the gospel apart from being born again; he’s addressing a problem of spiritual immaturity that people who have already become Christians are guilty of.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
I think I can best answer your question by asking another question. When Adam sinned and God came to him in Gen. 3:9 asking “Where are you,” was God seeking information?

Where was God the moment just before Adam sinned?
Was this “separation”, you are referring to, before or after Adam sinned?

Because the idea is relationship not space

Was God there, in relationship with Adam, at the very moment before Adam “disobeyed”?

Did God not know in the next 5min Adam is certainly going to “disobey”?

What kind of “relationship” is it where the Perfectly Omniscient God stands by 100% knowing the one he Loves is about to rip the “relationship” apart and does not say or do anything more… at that moment?

Destroy satan before satan tempted eve maybe?
Destroy Eve before Eve offered Adam the fruit maybe?
Placed Satan on Planet X on the other side of the universe such that he had no access to the Garden in the first place… maybe?
Never placed the tree of the knowledge… there in the first place… maybe?
God could have made the fruit smell and look nasty… maybe?

God 100% knew the results of every one of his own actions that lead up to this moment of disobedience and could have altered it at any point… but didn’t?

What kind of “relationship” did they have?
 
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Chalcedon

Well-known member
Sorry the issue was not Lazarus was nekros but was his story used as an analogy for spiritual death

The answer to that is no

Lazarus was physically dead

not spiritually
Read bdag and the other lexicon definitions which prove I'm correct.

nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.

3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.

BDAG's definition:

νεκρός, ά, όν
A. as adj. (perh. as early as Hom., certainly Pind.; in Ath. only R. title)
1. pert. to being in a state of loss of life, dead, of pers.:
2. pert. to being so morally or spirtually deficientas to be in effect dead, dead, fig. ext. of 1
a. of pers. [...] Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13.
b. of things ν. ἔργα dead works that cannot bring eternal life
3. pert. to having never been alive and lacking capacity for life, dead, lifeless
B. as subst.
1. one who is no longer physically alive, dead person, a dead body, a corpse, lit.
2. one who is so spiritually obtuse as to be in effect dead, dead

Conclusion: I rest my case end of the discussion of the definition of nekros. So far all the anti C’s are 100% wrong according to the Greek Lexicons where we get out definition of biblical words.

next
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Romans 7:24-25 might be helpful in this discussion....

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
There is nothing wrong with being Well-Rounded...

Unless the Doctor starts getting on to you...
 

fltom

Well-known member
Read bdag and the other lexicon definitions which prove I'm correct.

nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.

3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.

BDAG's definition:

νεκρός, ά, όν
A. as adj. (perh. as early as Hom., certainly Pind.; in Ath. only R. title)
1. pert. to being in a state of loss of life, dead, of pers.:
2. pert. to being so morally or spirtually deficientas to be in effect dead, dead, fig. ext. of 1
a. of pers. [...] Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13.
b. of things ν. ἔργα dead works that cannot bring eternal life
3. pert. to having never been alive and lacking capacity for life, dead, lifeless
B. as subst.
1. one who is no longer physically alive, dead person, a dead body, a corpse, lit.
2. one who is so spiritually obtuse as to be in effect dead, dead

Conclusion: I rest my case end of the discussion of the definition of nekros. So far all the anti C’s are 100% wrong according to the Greek Lexicons where we get out definition of biblical words.

next
When did you determine a lexicon supercedes the authority of scripture

Scripture refutes your view

The church at Sardis was not bereft of all stimuli

The prodigal son neither

nor Adam and Eve

those are the facts

not to mention the scriptures which engender faith so as to receive life

such as

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

the only one who needs life is one who is dead

believe and you will receive it

even these verses which speak of quickening from the dead

Ephesians 2:5-8 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

place faith before being made alive or a spiritual resurrection

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

and this verse puts forgiveness of sin ahead of being made alive or even if at the same general time

faith is needed before sin are forgiven

all these verses point to the fact the spiritually dead are not oblivious to all stimuli or lacking any responsiveness

.......................................................................

Nekros does not necessitate an inability to believe

and scripture you did not address contradicts that idea
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
When did you determine a lexicon supercedes the authority of scripture

Scripture refutes your view

The church at Sardis was not bereft of all stimuli

The prodigal son neither

nor Adam and Eve

those are the facts
Death means a complete loss of all stimuli.

Now you figure out how to apply that to both the physical and spiritual worlds. It fits PERFECTLY into my theology. Dead means dead- NO LIFE. No stimuli for the physical dead, no stimuli for the spiritual dead. Dead means what it means DEAD/ LIFELESS.

CORSPE- SPIRITUAL CORPSE.

Can you picture a spiritual zombie ?

oxymoron anyone ?

next.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Death means a complete loss of all stimuli.

Now you figure out how to apply that to both the physical and spiritual worlds. It fits PERFECTLY into my theology. Dead means dead- NO LIFE. No stimuli for the physical dead, no stimuli for the spiritual dead. Dead means what it means DEAD/ LIFELESS.

CORSPE- SPIRITUAL CORPSE.

Can you picture a spiritual zombie ?

oxymoron anyone ?

next.
You are still ignoring scripture

 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
You are still ignoring scripture

And I can say the same thing to you. Dead means without life regardless if its spiritual or physical. So there is no way a dead person ( spiritually or physically) can receive either spiritual or physical stimuli.

You must change the definition and then TWIST scripture to make a spiritually dead person able to receive spiritual stimuli. You WERE DEAD in your trespasses and sins when what ?

GOD MADE YOU ALIVE. From what ? the DEAD- spiritually via regeneration. See Ephesians and Colossians chapters 2 for that EXACT concept , words, illustration, analogy etc.............

next
 

fltom

Well-known member
And I can say the same thing to you. Dead means without life regardless if its spiritual or physical. So there is no way a dead person ( spiritually or physically) can receive either spiritual or physical stimuli.

You must change the definition and then TWIST scripture to make a spiritually dead person able to receive spiritual stimuli. You WERE DEAD in your trespasses and sins when what ?

GOD MADE YOU ALIVE. From what ? the DEAD- spiritually via regeneration. See Ephesians and Colossians chapters 2 for that EXACT concept , words, illustration, analogy etc.............

next
If you actually addressed the scriptures I gave you and were able to disprove the argument from them you might have a case

but you didn't and I do not believe you can so there is no reason to say anymore


BTW both Ephesian and Colossians refute your arguments as I have shown a number of times

they are among the scriptural argument you failed to address above
 

Predestined

Well-known member
Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God. You don’t want to mess with the second death, I promise you. And the way you escape the second death is to be born twice.

As a bona fide member of the Keep It Simple Stupid Club I like to go with "when you're dead inside, spiritually dead you can't please God. The good news is, where sin abounds grace abounds much more. Our salvation flows from God's initiative. He sends his Holy Spirit that sets the captives from sin and death free. It's God that breathes spiritual life into us and resurrects us from spiritual death., dead in sin.

One of the things about being dead is you can't do anything, God has to do it for us. So that being said when we are dead inside and we don't have 1 ounce of spiritual life in us we stay that way until God makes us alive.

It's a plain and simple fact that without rebirth no one will come to Christ. But all who are reborn do come to Christ. It's that irresistible grace thingy.

So in line with keeping it simple I'll do some reiterate'en:

People that are dead to the things of God stay dead to the things of God unless God makes the first move as only he can make them alive. Those whom God makes alive, come alive. Salvation is of the Lord.

Wanted dead or alive, 1 John 2:9–11 breakdown

“If you say you are in the light experiencing the life of God, yet you continually hate your brother, only one conclusion can be drawn: You are still in darkness, the realm of spiritual death and moral corruption, evil and wickedness. You still belong to the Devil.” Verse 10 provides the contrast: “If you are consistently loving your brother, you continually abide in light and give evidence that you have the life of God in you.

Moral of the story is if you have the life of God in you... Act like it! We don't want to be caught dead doing that double minded man boogie.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God. You don’t want to mess with the second death, I promise you. And the way you escape the second death is to be born twice.

As a bona fide member of the Keep It Simple Stupid Club I like to go with "when you're dead inside, spiritually dead you can't please God. The good news is, where sin abounds grace abounds much more. Our salvation flows from God's initiative. He sends his Holy Spirit that sets the captives from sin and death free. It's God that breathes spiritual life into us and resurrects us from spiritual death., dead in sin.

One of the things about being dead is you can't do anything, God has to do it for us. So that being said when we are dead inside and we don't have 1 ounce of spiritual life in us we stay that way until God makes us alive.

It's a plain and simple fact that without rebirth no one will come to Christ. But all who are reborn do come to Christ. It's that irresistible grace thingy.

So in line with keeping it simple I'll do some reiterate'en:

People that are dead to the things of God stay dead to the things of God unless God makes the first move as only he can make them alive. Those whom God makes alive, come alive. Salvation is of the Lord.

Wanted dead or alive, 1 John 2:9–11 breakdown

“If you say you are in the light experiencing the life of God, yet you continually hate your brother, only one conclusion can be drawn: You are still in darkness, the realm of spiritual death and moral corruption, evil and wickedness. You still belong to the Devil.” Verse 10 provides the contrast: “If you are consistently loving your brother, you continually abide in light and give evidence that you have the life of God in you.

Moral of the story is if you have the life of God in you... Act like it! We don't want to be caught dead doing that double minded man boogie.
And it boggles my mind how some would redefine the meaning of the word dead to its exact opposite where a spiritually dead "corpse" can respond to stimuli.

Its an oxymoronic theology that thinks a spiritually dead man is capable of responding to the spirit anymore that a dead corpse in a casket could respond to anyone.

These people do not really think through the meaning of dead because their man centered BIAS gets in the way of the Truth.
 

Predestined

Well-known member
Man made theology. This is nonsensical and ridiculous in context to the Scripture.

θάνατος / thanatos is a reckoning of "death" upon those who are physically alive. As being "physically alive", any "physically alive" person can respond the the Gospel. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation

I agree, when one over complicates an easy to comprehend subject such as "spiritual death and physical death" they will definitely end up with nonsensical and ridiculous comprehension of Scripture.

But can "any "physically alive" but "spiritually dead" person respond the Gospel?

There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all gone out of the way;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one
Romans 3:10-12



That's a little summation of the universality of human corruption. Sin is so pervasive that it captures all of us, we are born into sin. Paul shows that there are no exceptions to this indictment among fallen men (spiritually dead). There is none righteous; there is none who does good. They can't choose the goodness found in the gospel.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation.

Right, but unless one is born again you don't want anything to do with the gospel. Paul penned Romans 1:6 after his encounter with Jesus. When he was spiritually dead on the road to Damascus to arrest anyone who believed in Jesus he had no clue about the gospel and its power.

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation indeed.
It restores the spiritually dead to God’s knowledge, to God’s fellowship, to God’s image, to new life in Christ.
 
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Chalcedon

Well-known member
I've tried to engage you at a meaningful level to deal with the issue.



It is a false comparison. If you will engage, I will show you it is.



I'm not BIAS at all. I am concern how your belief reflect upon the Character of God. I think too much of Him to believe God is like a man with a magnifying glass burning whomever "He" chooses when "HE" chooses.

Dead people do NOTHING. However, Death is a reckoning upon people that are physically alive. As a person who is physically alive, they hear and process the Gospel. I can prove this if you will engage on the use of θάνατος / thanatos. Paul applied the use to himself while in Christ.
I’ll get back with you tonight
 

Predestined

Well-known member
Nothing complicated to understand. The person is not dead. As being not physically dead, they CAN hear and obey the Gospel.

Doesn't the Gospel tell a person what to do? Are you denying this?



If you're trying to show inability, there is nothing here about inability. A person is preached the Gospel and they can do exactly what the Gospel tells them to do. The Gospel presents the remedy for their condition.



Quote exactly where Paul said that. That is you addition. Paul never said such nonsense.



Then why are you saying a person has to be "born again" before they can respond to the Gospel. You just said that the Gospel...... IS.... the power of God unto Salvation.

Why are YOU adding to the Scriptures a requirement that is not there?
That's what I'm talking about!
When one over complicates an easy to comprehend subject such as "spiritual death and physical death" they will definitely end up with nonsensical and ridiculous comprehension of Scripture.
 
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