Spiritual vs. Physical

Icyspark

Active member
The spiritual rest that Jesus supplies doesn't overturn the physical rest which He also supplies in His once a week Sabbath rest. Compare the following two passages and consider the three color-coded elements and then see if you can answer the related questions:

Matthew 11:28
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 7:37
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

T__ F__ There is a physical component to humans resting on the Sabbath.
T__ F__ Finding spiritual rest in Jesus is no different than drinking spiritual water. Both do not negate the continued need for their physical counterpart.
T__ F__ Resting in Jesus means that humans no longer require any physical rest.

I pray this helps.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
The spiritual rest that Jesus supplies doesn't overturn the physical rest which He also supplies in His once a week Sabbath rest. Compare the following two passages and consider the three color-coded elements and then see if you can answer the related questions:

Matthew 11:28
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 7:37
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

T__ F__ There is a physical component to humans resting on the Sabbath.
T__ F__ Finding spiritual rest in Jesus is no different than drinking spiritual water. Both do not negate the continued need for their physical counterpart.
T__ F__ Resting in Jesus means that humans no longer require any physical rest.

I pray this helps.

Keeping the Sabbath is a side issue... What is really important is:

Do you believe in the Biblical Jesus?
Do you believe in the Biblical Trinity?
Do you believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone?
Do you believe the scriptures to be inspired and infallible?

Everything else is a bunny trail...

I pray this help.

God Bless
 

Icyspark

Active member
Keeping the Sabbath is a side issue... What is really important is:

Do you believe in the Biblical Jesus? YES
Do you believe in the Biblical Trinity? YES
Do you believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone? YES
Do you believe the scriptures to be inspired and infallible? YES

Everything else is a bunny trail...

I pray this help.

God Bless


Hi Yodas_Prodigy,

I'm pretty sure you gave me grief on your Hebrews 1:1-2 thread for supposedly not addressing your opening post (disingenuous much?), yet here you are totally ignoring the opening post and attempting to derail it. Unlike you, I actually addressed your opening post and corrected your errant belief that God "stopped speaking to us through Prophets... BUT ... BY HIS SON..."
  • I showed you numerous biblical examples of why your narrow interpretation of this singular passage of Scripture was incorrect, yet you continue to embrace it.
  • I showed examples of the apostle John writing a book of prophecy (Revelation). You subtly adjusted your position to allow that maybe apostles could be allowed to break your narrow belief.
  • I showed you examples of non apostles who were identified as prophets in the New Testament. You claimed, "IMHO" (iow, no biblical support), "the office of the prophet changed after Christ and the Apostles."
  • I showed you how Paul says God "placed in the CHURCH . . . PROPHETS." Your response? To deny that any of the spiritual gifts remain.
  • I showed you how Paul says that Christians are to "eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy." Your response? You went all the way back to start and again appealed to your private interpretation of Hebrews 1:1, 2 that God "stopped speaking to us through Prophets... BUT ... BY HIS SON..."
It's a bizarre exercise in futility. Your "apologetic" is based on denial and distraction. This is a post modern mindset where one's personal "truth" overrides God's truth.

In Mark 8:38 Jesus says, "If anyone is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when He comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

Is that a "bunny trail"? Do you really want Jesus to be "ashamed" of you? Don't you think that Jesus's words are "really important"? You imply that you believe in the questions above that you asked me, yet if the Scriptures are "inspired and infallible" should you not elevate all of them as being "really important"? Why would you trash the words of Jesus which don't agree with your privately held beliefs?

I pray this helps.
 

Geoff

Member
Keeping the Sabbath is a side issue... What is really important is:

Do you believe in the Biblical Jesus?
Do you believe in the Biblical Trinity?
Do you believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone?
Do you believe the scriptures to be inspired and infallible?

Everything else is a bunny trail...

I pray this help.

God Bless
Icy's response to you remains vaild and deserves a response, and the Sabbath is not a side issue.

Otherwise from that, the SDA church answers "yes" to the four questions you asked above.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

In whom we have redemption Col 1:13-14
Icy's response to you remains vaild and deserves a response, ...
It is true that in genuine Sabbath-keeping there will be an entire cessation from physical work; The reason why we cease from labor on the seventh day, the Sabbath of our Lord Jesus Christ, is that we may be at liberty to contemplate God as manifested to us in Jesus Christ. And the resting from physical labor is an outward sign of the fact that we have ceased from sin. “For we which have believed do enter into rest,” and “he that hath entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works as God did from his.” CAS 15.2
 

CrowCross

Super Member
The spiritual rest that Jesus supplies doesn't overturn the physical rest which He also supplies in His once a week Sabbath rest. Compare the following two passages and consider the three color-coded elements and then see if you can answer the related questions:

Matthew 11:28
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
John 7:37
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

T__ F__ There is a physical component to humans resting on the Sabbath.
T__ F__ Finding spiritual rest in Jesus is no different than drinking spiritual water. Both do not negate the continued need for their physical counterpart.
T__ F__ Resting in Jesus means that humans no longer require any physical rest.

I pray this helps.
Is there a verse in the NT that tells us we should rest on the sabbath?
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Also I gave them My Sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, so that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. Ezek 20:12
It is true that in genuine Sabbath-keeping there will be an entire cessation from physical work; The reason why we cease from labor on the seventh day, the Sabbath of our Lord Jesus Christ, is that we may be at liberty to contemplate God as manifested to us in Jesus Christ. And the resting from physical labor is an outward sign of the fact that we have ceased from sin. “For we which have believed do enter into rest,” and “he that hath entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works as God did from his.” CAS 15.2
CrowCross said:
Is there a verse in the NT that tells us we should rest on the sabbath?
Mark 2:27
The sabbath was made for humankind
Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses...
Paul and Barnabas, who were speaking to them and urging them to continue in the grace of God.
The next Sabbath nearly all the city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. Acts 13:39-42
 

Icyspark

Active member
Also I gave them My Sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, so that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. Ezek 20:12

CrowCross said:
Is there a verse in the NT that tells us we should rest on the sabbath?

Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses...
Paul and Barnabas, who were speaking to them and urging them to continue in the grace of God.
The next Sabbath nearly all the city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. Acts 13:39-42


Hi JonHawk,

That's a good text seeing as how the people who begged Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath were Gentiles:

Acts 13:42-44
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the GENTILES begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

This is a troublesome text for Sunday keepers as it very clearly reveals that the seventh day maintains its venerated title (i.e. it hasn't been stripped away and neither is it marginalized by calling it "the Jewish Sabbath"). That Paul doesn't take this golden opportunity to instruct the Gentiles that they are not bound to observe the seventh day but should be observing the first day in supposed honor of the Lord's resurrection (something never suggested by Jesus or any of His apostles). Nope. Paul doesn't tell them any such things. He doesn't suggest let's just talk tomorrow. Or the second day of the week. Or the third day of the week. No. He does as they suggest and waits a full on week before preaching to the Gentiles! No where in Scripture can you find any such endorsement for Sunday. Sabbatarian critics look to collecting money (at home, no less) as empirical evidence for the elevation of Sunday as a day to gather together. WEAK (n)

I pray this helps.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
26 “Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.
27 The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath.
29 When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead, ...

32 “We tell you the good news: What God promised our ancestors 33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus.

38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Hi JonHawk,

That's a good text seeing as how the people who begged Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath were Gentiles:

Acts 13:42-44
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the GENTILES begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.
And you also were united in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Do you believe in the Biblical Trinity?
AV Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

As part of the debate here about "Trinity", men have redefined it from "Godhead", which should be discussed as well.

Who's definition of "Trinity" are we going to use between us ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

pythons

Active member
The spiritual rest that Jesus supplies doesn't overturn the physical rest which He also supplies in His once a week Sabbath rest. Compare the following two passages and consider the three color-coded elements and then see if you can answer the related questions:

Matthew 11:28
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
John 7:37
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

T__ F__ There is a physical component to humans resting on the Sabbath.
T__ F__ Finding spiritual rest in Jesus is no different than drinking spiritual water. Both do not negate the continued need for their physical counterpart.
T__ F__ Resting in Jesus means that humans no longer require any physical rest.

I pray this helps.

The resting is a moral or natural law as can be seen by literally every culture there is history on. The ceremonial part is the timing of when Sabbath was to be observed. Remember the Sabbath, as it was intended, was to be perpetual - man was created to live "IN GOD'S REST". Our 1st parents sin and were kicked OUT of God's rest.

There is no doubt in my mind that Noah, Abraham, and every righteous individual prior to Moses observed the Sabbath - that Sabbath however wouldn't have coincided with a Gregorian Saturday.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
AV Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

As part of the debate here about "Trinity", men have redefined it from "Godhead", which should be discussed as well.

Who's definition of "Trinity" are we going to use between us ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,
but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Col. 2:6
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord,
so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith,
as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men,
after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Icyspark said:
The spiritual rest that Jesus supplies doesn't overturn the physical rest which He also supplies in His once a week Sabbath rest. Compare the following two passages and consider the three color-coded elements and then see if you can answer the related questions:

Matthew 11:28
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 7:37
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

T__ F__ There is a physical component to humans resting on the Sabbath.
T__ F__ Finding spiritual rest in Jesus is no different than drinking spiritual water. Both do not negate the continued need for their physical counterpart.
T__ F__ Resting in Jesus means that humans no longer require any physical rest.

The resting is a moral or natural law as can be seen by literally every culture there is history on. The ceremonial part is the timing of when Sabbath was to be observed. Remember the Sabbath, as it was intended, was to be perpetual - man was created to live "IN GOD'S REST". Our 1st parents sin and were kicked OUT of God's rest.

There is no doubt in my mind that Noah, Abraham, and every righteous individual prior to Moses observed the Sabbath
Then Moses said, “If now I have found grace in Your sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray, go among us, even though we are a stiff-necked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us as Your inheritance.” Ex 34:8
- that Sabbath however wouldn't have coincided with a Gregorian Saturday.
T__ F__ Resting in Jesus means that in Him is full redemption.

“In returning and resting in Me is your salvation." Isa 30:15

I waited for the Lord more than watchmen wait for the morning,
O Israel, hope in the Lord; For with the Lord there is mercy, And with Him is full redemption.
And He shall redeem Israel from all iniquity. Ps 130:6-8

Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own inheritance. Ex 19:5

Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? Micah 7:18
 

Icyspark

Active member
The resting is a moral or natural law as can be seen by literally every culture there is history on. The ceremonial part is the timing of when Sabbath was to be observed. Remember the Sabbath, as it was intended, was to be perpetual - man was created to live "IN GOD'S REST". Our 1st parents sin and were kicked OUT of God's rest.


Hi pythons,

What do you mean by "a moral or natural law"? It appears you're suggesting that if different cultures accept a biblical law that that's what makes it moral? So not murdering is "moral or natural law" since different cultures accept this? If this isn't what you're saying let me know.

I'd like to know where you find biblical rationale for how you get to determine what aspect of what God commands are supposedly ceremonial. It sounds to me like you're relying solely on opinion. Where do you find that "Our 1st parents ... were kicked out of God's rest"? and what is that supposed to mean?

You placed, "IN GOD'S REST" in quotes. Is this a Bible quote or from some other source?


There is no doubt in my mind that Noah, Abraham, and every righteous individual prior to Moses observed the Sabbath - that Sabbath however wouldn't have coincided with a Gregorian Saturday.


Why do you say this? I'm pretty sure I can show you this isn't true.

God bless.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
In the Lord all the descendants of Israel Will be justified and will boast. Isaiah 45:24-25
Hi pythons,

What do you mean by "a moral or natural law"? It appears you're suggesting that if different cultures accept a biblical law that that's what makes it moral?
"Have you renounced self-confidence, self-boasting, and accepted Jesus, who is made everything to you,--wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption? Do you see Christ as the anti-type of all the types, the precious, glorious substance of all the shadows, the full signification of all the symbols?​
This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. The knowledge of God and of Christ is the only knowledge which can lead to true and eternal happiness. This knowledge all may obtain; all may win the crown of glory, and the life which measures with the life of God." COH, EGW​

But let the one who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the Lord; Jer 9:24
 
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pythons

Active member
Hi pythons,

What do you mean by "a moral or natural law"? It appears you're suggesting that if different cultures accept a biblical law that that's what makes it moral? So not murdering is "moral or natural law" since different cultures accept this? If this isn't what you're saying let me know.

I'd like to know where you find biblical rationale for how you get to determine what aspect of what God commands are supposedly ceremonial. It sounds to me like you're relying solely on opinion. Where do you find that "Our 1st parents ... were kicked out of God's rest"? and what is that supposed to mean?

You placed, "IN GOD'S REST" in quotes. Is this a Bible quote or from some other source?





Why do you say this? I'm pretty sure I can show you this isn't true.

God bless.


Romans 2,14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Every society / culture we have history on establishes that there existed in those cultures a system of laws - prohibitions on stealing, murder, adultery, paying homage to god's, etc. The reason for this is simple - mankind was created by a moral God & is therefore commanded naturally to be moral. Even a savage living in a jungle knows its wrong to steal from the savage in the next mud hut.

A ceremonial law is a rubric that mankind can only know by instruction outside of nature - i.e. supernaturally. Man is not instructed by nature that he should observe the day of Atonement or a seventh day Sabbath. Scripture informs us that God had to supernaturally communicate ceremonial laws to Israel. A ceremonial law isn't a moral law.

The 3rd Commandment is part Moral in that cultures throughout time have dedicated some amount of time to the worship of their god's - the timing however is absolutely ceremonial. The New Testament makes it very clear that the timing of the Sabbath was absolutely ceremonial and of no significance to Christians. No doubt you are free to make a special Devotion out of it but its practice in the Old Covenant was part of the ceremonial law to be sure.
 

Common Tater

Active member
Romans 2,14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Every society / culture we have history on establishes that there existed in those cultures a system of laws - prohibitions on stealing, murder, adultery, paying homage to god's, etc. The reason for this is simple - mankind was created by a moral God & is therefore commanded naturally to be moral. Even a savage living in a jungle knows its wrong to steal from the savage in the next mud hut.

A ceremonial law is a rubric that mankind can only know by instruction outside of nature - i.e. supernaturally. Man is not instructed by nature that he should observe the day of Atonement or a seventh day Sabbath. Scripture informs us that God had to supernaturally communicate ceremonial laws to Israel. A ceremonial law isn't a moral law.

The 3rd Commandment is part Moral in that cultures throughout time have dedicated some amount of time to the worship of their god's - the timing however is absolutely ceremonial. The New Testament makes it very clear that the timing of the Sabbath was absolutely ceremonial and of no significance to Christians. No doubt you are free to make a special Devotion out of it but its practice in the Old Covenant was part of the ceremonial law to be sure.
If further proof is needed that the fourth commandment is ceremonial, not moral, look no further than John 7:23.

If a man receives circumcision on a Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry at Me because I made an entire man well on a Sabbath? John 7:23 NASB

No Adventist will deny that circumcision was a ceremonial law. But circumcising a male Hebrew child on the eighth day, even if that day fell on the Sabbath (Leviticus 12:3), took precedence over the fourth commandment. A ceremonial law cannot trump a moral one. Nowhere in the Bible do you find it required to murder or steal or commit adultery or take the Lord's name in vain in order that a ceremonial law be obeyed. The Sabbath command is a ceremonial one.

Also, read Joshua 6. The Lord commanded the Children of Israel to march around Jericho for seven straight days. One of those days fell on a Sabbath. The Children of Israel did not obey the Sabbath command to rest on that day. Again, the fourth commandment is a ceremonial law, not a moral one.
 

pythons

Active member
If further proof is needed that the fourth commandment is ceremonial, not moral, look no further than John 7:23.

If a man receives circumcision on a Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry at Me because I made an entire man well on a Sabbath? John 7:23 NASB

No Adventist will deny that circumcision was a ceremonial law. But circumcising a male Hebrew child on the eighth day, even if that day fell on the Sabbath (Leviticus 12:3), took precedence over the fourth commandment. A ceremonial law cannot trump a moral one. Nowhere in the Bible do you find it required to murder or steal or commit adultery or take the Lord's name in vain in order that a ceremonial law be obeyed. The Sabbath command is a ceremonial one.

Also, read Joshua 6. The Lord commanded the Children of Israel to march around Jericho for seven straight days. One of those days fell on a Sabbath. The Children of Israel did not obey the Sabbath command to rest on that day. Again, the fourth commandment is a ceremonial law, not a moral one.

That's an excellent point Common Tater, I never looked at it that way before BUT what you say is true, a ceremonial commandment doesn't play 2nd chair to a moral commandment - it's the opposite. Well done!! I'm adding that to my sword collection!
 
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