Strongest Points

[zerinus]

Yes I believe that I got that point already Mormon. And it's that precise point that necessitated me answering your post to myself in which you somewhat implausibly gave me a teaching on my faith. So as a Mormon (as you are) and seeing that you are free to post wheresoever you please I simply asked you to spare me any further need to refuse your teachings based on no more ground than that you are a Mormon. I cant see how any of that is difficult to understand. As to the rest - its a singular waste of time isn't it? Try not to self identify as a Mormon and make the pretence full and you may not feel any need to post to me at all. Try Roman Catholicism. Try it. Ask the Mormon god for a burning of the bosom effect. You never know - he made oblige. On the other hand I have no qualms about being thrown into the pit - but I will never receive a shred of teaching from a Mormon. So don't post to me and I won't have to respond!

Talking rubbish, nonsense, wasting time. No further comment is required.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Romans 9 has caused me intense concern, hours of prayer, and serious reflection over the years.

I've never taken it lightly and still feel I don't fully understand it, even though I believe in free will.

It should make you reflect. I have read both a corporate and individual view. But it's clear that Esau didn't have any free will on tap.

 

[Daniel.]

I don't know about that.

Why did the author of Hebrews warn us not to be like Esau who despised his birthright and sold it for a single meal in Hebrews 12:16?

See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. ESV​

If Esau's spiritual birthright was being marked as a vessel of wrath in which he had absolutely no free choice about, why are we warned not to be like him? Esau would have no real birthright at all to sell, and we couldn't sell ours either. What did Esau even have to repent of, if he had no legitimate "blessing" that he rejected, but was marked out for a curse?

This makes no sense under Calvinism; no predestined child of God could sell his birthright, it would be an impossibility.

They know that it makes no sense under Calvinism, they just don't care. LOL They aren't honest the way we are.

(Excluding rhomphaeam.)

 

[rhomphaeam]

I don't know about that.

Why did the author of Hebrews warn us not to be like Esau who despised his birthright and sold it for a single meal in Hebrews 12:16?

See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. ESV​

If Esau's spiritual birthright was being marked as a vessel of wrath in which he had absolutely no free choice about, why are we warned not to be like him? Esau would have no real birthright at all to sell, and we couldn't sell ours either. What did Esau even have to repent of, if he had no legitimate "blessing" that he rejected, but was marked out for a curse?

This makes no sense under Calvinism; no predestined child of God could sell his birthright, it would be an impossibility.

Yes that's true - no true child of God could sell their birth right. But that cannot be to speak that all true children of God are warned not to be like Esau for the presuppositional condition of his reprobation. I assume that no one imagines that they could not be driven by the lusts of the flesh if they were to take the same reprobate condition of Esau. You cannot elect for yourself to a reprobate - but a chosen son can be wise in his own estimation and be sure to always seek the Father's glory. Yes? Isn't that what the writer of Hebrews means?

 

[Theo1689]

They know that it makes no sense under Calvinism, they just don't care. LOL

<sigh>

It makes perfect sense.
It's simply a different opinion than you hold, and you can't deal with that.

If it TRULY "makes no sense under Calvinism", then we would immediately reject Calvinism. But we don't, because it DOES make sense.

You simply make silly and self-serving non-sensical claims like "they just don't care", to try to justify why we refuse to accept your false teachings.

They aren't honest the way we are.

Worthless ad hominem.

 

[Simpletruther]

Non-Calvinists : Which are some of the strongest points Calvinists make for their case?

Calvinists : Which are some of the strongest points Non-Calvinists make for their case?

Some of the strongest points Calvinists make (not that it actually makes their case--I think they're taken out of context) :
1. "John 17--Jesus lost none! John 6 says it is God's will He lose none, so He cannot disobey the Father so He cannot lose any!"
2. "Romans 8--Golden Chain of redemption! Can't break it!"
3. "Ephesians 1--He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world!"
4. "Faithful is He who began a good work and He will do it!"

The strongest argument from non calvinists IMO is on the desire to save all/universal love passages. Some of the calvinist rebuttals seem strained and unconvincing at times. Though some calvinists accept them and point out that God can desire one thing but do another they he desires more.

 

[Daniel.]

The strongest argument from non calvinists IMO is on the desire to save all/universal love passages. Some of the calvinist rebuttals seem strained and unconvincing at times. Though some calvinists accept them and point out that God can desire one thing but do another they he desires more.

I was impressed with Spurgeon's response to that--"I am not God so that I must be everlastingly consistent--I will not change Scripture to fit my doctrine, I would rather be wrong a thousand times than change Scripture to be right" (paraphrase).

 

[Theo1689]

The strongest argument from non calvinists IMO is on the desire to save all/universal love passages. Some of the calvinist rebuttals seem strained and unconvincing at times.

It seems too many people don't understand who or what God is.

If God TRULY desired all to be saved, then all WOULD be saved.
Otherwise, you are denying God's omnipotence.
Certainly you are denying Romans 9.

 

[Simpletruther]

It seems too many people don't understand who or what God is.

If God TRULY desired all to be saved, then all WOULD be saved.
Otherwise, you are denying God's omnipotence.
Certainly you are denying Romans 9.

Not if He desired something else more.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

I don't know about that.

Why did the author of Hebrews warn us not to be like Esau who despised his birthright and sold it for a single meal in Hebrews 12:16?

See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. ESV​

If Esau's spiritual birthright was being marked as a vessel of wrath in which he had absolutely no free choice about, why are we warned not to be like him? Esau would have no real birthright at all to sell, and we couldn't sell ours either. What did Esau even have to repent of, if he had no legitimate "blessing" that he rejected, but was marked out for a curse?

This makes no sense under Calvinism; no predestined child of God could sell his birthright, it would be an impossibility.

That's exactly correct. He was not predestined. Most Calvinists leave it at that, as it is what God decided.

There are a minor group of Hyper Calvinists who believe that God of necessity. sends them to hell.

I don't see that in scripture. But admit it could be true. Here is the bottom line. It is all in His Hands. That leaves you with another problem. An omniscient God knows who will be saved and who will not. Why does he allow the not chosen to even be born?

 

[Daniel.]

Go to sleep! I haven't removed my clothes for more than 20 years save for a bath once a month and sleep under a blanket for four hours a day - go to sleep you say Daniel! You'll never make a Calvinist.

Missing sleep is not good--shrinks your brain. Very destructive. Prevents your brain from doing its self-cleaning (brain cleans itself when you sleep) resulting in amyloid plaques (leading to Alzheimer's). Affects memory--prevents new memories from being created. Affects appetite--makes you less satiated, so you eat more recklessly.

Now, I suppose it is possible someone could have a miraculous grace from God to protect them these (and many more) consequences, but I don't want to "tempt" God (I've already made that mistake on other situations in the past, and I am wary of doing it anymore).

I did go to sleep, but I woke up with chest pain, so I had to get in my sauna and sweat out excess potassium (I have ESRD, I do not void excess potassium). I have often been on the brink of dying in recent years. My trust is in God about this.

 

[rhomphaeam]

Missing sleep is not good--shrinks your brain. Very destructive. Prevents your brain from doing its self-cleaning (brain cleans itself when you sleep) resulting in amyloid plaques (leading to Alzheimer's). Affects memory--prevents new memories from being created. Affects appetite--makes you less satiated, so you eat more recklessly.

Now, I suppose it is possible someone could have a miraculous grace from God to protect them these (and many more) consequences, but I don't want to "tempt" God (I've already made that mistake on other situations in the past, and I am wary of doing it anymore).

I did go to sleep, but I woke up with chest pain, so I had to get in my sauna and sweat out excess potassium (I have ESRD, I do not void excess potassium). I have often been on the brink of dying in recent years.

I am sorry to hear that you couldn't sleep Daniel. I don't take my life as seriously as you take yours or spend my time thinking about all the concerns you have expressed with the brain. I literally sleep under a blanket for approximately 4 hours per night in my clothes and have done for. 20 years. Everyone I know who spends their time gazing at them selves is dying of something by now - if not literally then psychosomatically - its a waste of time. I don't have a doctor and I am not starting now. The world of self interest is a disease I can avoid. I just wait for the dogs to hang me for telling them they are serving Satan when they tell me that Muhammed is just peaches and cream. Good morning Daniel.

 

[Daniel.]

I am sorry to hear that you couldn't sleep Daniel. I don't take my life as seriously as you take yours or spend my time thinking about all the concerns you have expressed with the brain. I literally sleep under a blanket for approximately 4 hours per night in my clothes and have done for. 20 years. Everyone I know who spends their time gazing at them selves is dying of something by now - if not literally then psychosomatically - its a waste of time. I don't have a doctor and I am not starting now. The world of self interest is a disease I can avoid. I just wait for the dogs to hang me for telling them they are serving Satan when they tell me that Muhammed is just peaches and cream. Good morning Daniel.

Well, maybe you have a grace. Praise God. Well wishes.

 

[rhomphaeam]

Well, maybe you have a grace. Praise God. Well wishes.

What I have Daniel is to know how I am going to die and by what means, And it is a rope. The Lord gave that to me nearly forty years ago in a prison cell when I was radically saved. I cant say I wasn't suddenly afraid seeing myself going to the gallows - but it did make me count the cost so well that I don't have any fear of speaking the truth even to radical Muslims. I just show some mercy and them rebuke them openly. It goes down a treat - the Lord is merciful and He doesn't ask us to do anything for His glory unless we ourselves know what we are getting into. I just wish I could get so many of my lame Christian friends who spend their time shrinking from every risk to just do the same thing and settle their lives with the Father and go for the dive. Its great and you should come in Daniel. You have nothing to lose but your life. We cannot live in fear brother. I rebuke doctors, judges, lawyers, pastors and bankers and I make no exceptions. They just look at my fine Georgian house and my fine furniture and fine car and turn away. Their greed and their avarice all dressed up in self importance leaves them consumed by doubt. If that is what you call grace - then I have bucket loads.

 

[Daniel.]

What I have Daniel is to know how I am going to die and by what means, And it is a rope. The Lord gave that to me nearly forty years ago in a prison cell when I was radically saved. I cant say I wasn't suddenly afraid seeing myself going to the gallows - but it did make me count the cost so well that I don't have any fear of speaking the truth even to radical Muslims. I just show some mercy and them rebuke them openly. It goes down a treat - the Lord is merciful and He doesn't ask us to do anything for His glory unless we ourselves know what we are getting into. I just wish I could get so many of my lame Christian friends who spend their time shrinking from every risk to just do the same thing and settle their lives with the Father and go for the dive. Its great and you should come in Daniel. You have nothing to lose but your life. We cannot live in fear brother. I rebuke doctors, judges, lawyers, pastors and bankers and I make no exceptions. They just look at my fine Georgian house and my fine furniture and fine car and turn away. Their greed and their avarice all dressed up in self importance leaves them consumed by doubt. If that is what you call grace - then I have bucket loads.

I've been there, and it is good. I went to hell from listening to a "pastor" instead of God and I've been trying to piece my life back together since then (2003). I want to believe God (His Word) so I keep studying and praying about it. I will never again listen to a man. Never. The Word only.

 

[rhomphaeam]

I've been there, and it is good. I went to hell from listening to a "pastor" instead of God and I've been trying to piece my life back together since then (2003). I want to believe God (His Word) so I keep studying and praying about it. I will never again listen to a man. Never. The Word only.

Now that explains much Daniel. I have seen that thing so many times and it rarely produces any fruit. I am in Ministry myself and so when I take other pastors to task they always try to suggest I could be somehow mistaken. I never leave them in any doubt that I will be taking a rod to them unless they repent and start serving their flocks with humility. Some are arrogant which they find with me is like throwing fire into a bear pit as I drag them to the ravine and explain how the Lord is going to chose between one of us as I throw us both into the pit. Men sense when they are facing a real cost and often draw back - they remove the hooks and let go of the ropes. If they didn't I would thrown both myself and them into the ravine and let God chose. Women and children in the faith I never rebuke, women who are witches I bind and men who are truly weak through no fault of their own unless they are dithering in a spirit of being malicious I care for with compassion. You get no cheer leaders and no support from anyone but a few whom God raises up and they are a true wonder. Things are going to change Daniel. Very soon the Lord is going to show His hand and when He does we had all better take hold of it and walk with Him.

 

[Manfred]

I think the strongest point Calvinists make is that we need to be willing to accept offensive things about God, and we need be to firmly committed to believe what the Bible shows to us even if it is against our personal preference

Offensive to whom?
What you interpret as offensive?
What kind of silly standard is that?

Does this offend your sensibilities:
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

You have read how the Spirit God sent only bypassed the houses with the blood on the lintel?
Who caused all those first born babies, toddlers, teenagers etc to die and why...
Is this subject too sensitive for you to think about?

What about all those killed in the flood.... Too sensitive?

 

[Manfred]

From my experience, the Calvinist's defense is that God is using "baby talk," that is, he is stating something in a way that is not factually true because we don't need to know about his secret secondary wills and such things. I never found it convincing or honest.

Why the dishonesty here.

Where is that EVER a defense?
You create a scarecrow of a strawman and place it on God, to your shame.

You possibly left, as per another thread, but if you are still lurking, these type of posts is probably why and not love as you claimed.

 

[Manfred]

Anyone willing to admit that some of their opponents points give them trouble? LOL!

Not one.

What troublesome strawman do you have?

Does it not bother you to say how special you are in being able to discern the spiritual in your natural fallen flesh state, and then choosing to believe and based on that God was forced to save you.

I am not ashamed to say that God chose me. I NEVER merited salvation because I was clever enough to figure out that I needed to believe in order to force God's hand.
I am saved by grace through the faith God granted me. I never ever deserved it. Unmerited favor.

How can you not be bothered by being special and being able to discern the spiritual in your flesh, while the person standing next to you cannot and are doomed.

 

[Manfred]

I don't think your reading my post very carefully. The point of my post was we SHOULD accept difficult things.

Yet you cannot accept that God created Pharaoh as a vessel of wrath, or are you pleading special circumstances?