Sulfur balls (brimstone) found at Sodom & Gomorrah

[The Pixie]

What do you think humility is?

Part of it would be being able to swallow your pride and admit you were wrong to an atheist.

You keep making it about how stupid I am, and how smart you are, so I'm going to take you seriously..... why?

I have given up on you taking me seriously. This is really about why no one should ever take YOU seriously Steve.

You lost the argument about PET scans, supposedly your favourite subject, saying positrons bounce off electrons. Elsewhere you have said the big bang started with two atoms collided. You think native sulfur can survive when sulfur is combusted. All this despite claiming to have done physics in college.

I am not claiming I am smart Steve; I do not have to be to spot your errors. But you are right about the other bit.

 

[SteveB]

Part of it would be being able to swallow your pride and admit you were wrong to an atheist.

Did you read my post?

Qunatum Mechanics Text for upper division University course

For anyone who's actually interested in what we used in the university for an upper division course on Quantum Mechanics. http://gr.xjtu.edu.cn/c/document_library/get_file?p_l_id=21699&folderId=2383652&name=DLFE-82647.pdf From David Griffiths.

forums.carm.org

I have given up on you taking me seriously. This is really about why no one should ever take YOU seriously Steve.

It's a pity you've given up so easily, I took atheists seriously for well over 15 years. Even when it became clear that they didn't want to be taken seriously. And there are some I still take seriously.
Those who've become argumentative, I'm weary of them.
This who Jesus thing is not an argument. You either come, and learn for yourself, or remain ignorant.
God is a far more gracious individual than I have patience for. And after 20 years, I think I've done pretty good.

You lost the argument about PET scans, supposedly your favourite subject, saying positrons bounce off electrons. Elsewhere you have said the big bang started with two atoms collided. You think native sulfur can survive when sulfur is combusted. All this despite claiming to have done physics in college.

Qunatum Mechanics Text for upper division University course

For anyone who's actually interested in what we used in the university for an upper division course on Quantum Mechanics. http://gr.xjtu.edu.cn/c/document_library/get_file?p_l_id=21699&folderId=2383652&name=DLFE-82647.pdf From David Griffiths.

forums.carm.org

I am not claiming I am smart Steve; I do not have to be to spot your errors. But you are right about the other bit.

Your tactics say otherwise.

When you're done trying to win an argument, and actually want to know--- call on the name of Jesus.

 

[Tetsugaku]

Did you read my post?

Do you have the humility to admit when you are wrong?

 

[SteveB]

Do you have the humility to admit when you are wrong?

Do you?
I just went through the 13 pages of the build a fence. I then went through your post history. 20 pages worth. I then went back through the build a fence thread.
Nothing.
You know what I did find.... a lot of you berating me, because I didn't use critical thinking skills the way you thought they should be used, but never actually defined what those are.

So..... At this point, I have to wonder...... how desperate are you that you'd play a game you hoped you'd win, and not get caught at?

 

[Tetsugaku]

Do you?
I just went through the 13 pages of the build a fence. I then went through your post history. 20 pages worth. I then went back through the build a fence thread.
Nothing.
You know what I did find.... a lot of you berating me, because I didn't use critical thinking skills the way you thought they should be used, but never actually defined what those are.

So..... At this point, I have to wonder...... how desperate are you that you'd play a game you hoped you'd win, and not get caught at?

Must be embarrassing for you then to be so incompetent at the simple task of reading a thread.

I've already bumped the thread quoting the answer you wrongly said I never gave. An answer I've already linked you to several times.

Will your ego allow you to show humility and admit your mistake?

 

[Bob1]

The Oil Patch.

Crude oil traders refer to sweet and sour crude. Sour has a lot of sulfur. Not close to pure.

You're not an oilman, are you?... Mr.Cowboy-commodore

 

[Tiburon]

Only location on Earth where brimstone is found with 96-98% purity (40% elsewhere). It's highly flammable and expels toxic fumes.

Nothing to support the site being Sodom or Gomorrah.

 

[inertia]

What is the purity of sulfur in Texas and Louisiana? It is described as native sulfur, so I assume pretty high (more than, say, 70%).

Also, as far as I know, the locations of Sodom and Gomorrah are not know, so kind of odd this guy can be sure these sulfur stones come from there.

Also, if it happened as the Bible describes, the sulfur would no longer be in its native form. As you say, sulfur is "highly flammable". The destruction of a city by fire and brimstone is going to lead to all the brimstone (i.e., sulfur) being consumed in the fire. The fact that there is native sulfur proves this cannot be Sodom or Gomorrah

It's my understanding that debate about the location of Sodom, in particular, is converging on a single archeological dig based on hard-cold data. For example, a change in the water level of the Dead Sea between the Bronze and Iron ages shows that the water level peaked about 3700 years before the present (~1700 BC) and suddenly dropped leaving behind a much dryer region.



Also, carbonized grain within vessels that were shoved into the sides of walls intermixed with bricks along with sherds of pottery melting in less than a few milliseconds between 8000 - 12000 deg. C. This includes additional melted mud bricks that have been found at the Tall el-Hamman Excavation Site in Jordan. Radiocarbon dating of the carbonized grain performed in the United States provides a 1700 BC timeframe.


The picture above shows a sample collection for radiocarbon dating.

As far as I am aware today, an exploding meteor's shock wave impacting a 500 sq. km area is consistent with the data provided.

"The answer lies in the soil, according to the researchers. Six samples from above, through, and below the soil layer from the time of the event were analyzed geochemically. The results showed "salt and sulfate levels > 6 percent (60,000 ppm) in the ash layer and > 5 percent (50,000 ppm) in the soil layers immediately above and below the ash layer," according to the paper."


This is a photograph of vessels that were shoved into a wall with the carbonized grain.

"There is other evidence that supports the air burst theory behind Tall el-Hammam. Meteor air burst sites like Chelyabinsk and Tunguska have the same signatures of meteor air burst that Tall el-Hammam has. These include high levels of platinum, a high incidence of magnetic spherules, and also a high incidence of what are known as scoria-like objects (SLOs)"


Here is a photograph of a portion of the melted brick at Tall el-Hammam.

------------
Credit: Dr. Stephen Collins et al.

 

[The Pixie]

...
As far as I am aware today, an exploding meteor's shock wave impacting a 500 sq. km area [/FONT]is consistent with the data provided.
...

That sounds entirely plausible to me.

 

[inertia]

That sounds entirely plausible to me.

Indeed. Based on the description in Genesis 13: 1-12, a person should be able to view a well-watered area from the foothills. It was land similar to Egypt -at that time- and people traveling this route would have viewed the Jordan running through it. Lot's travel route from Bethel and Ai located a bit north of Jericho to the west when moving eastward toward Sodom and Gomorrah provides a direction.




...........

Map credit: Dr. Steven Collins

 

[J regia]

That sounds entirely plausible to me.

The story of Lot's wife, however, is more akin to a volcanic eruption which occurred over a longer period of time than an exploding meteor or the impact of a meteorite or an asteroid, where she is encased in volcanic ash while fleeing the area like the bodies at Pompeii.

The Casts - Pompeii Sites

During the excavations in Pompeii, the remains of over one thousand victims of the 79 AD eruption have been found. During the first phase of the eruption, those who hadn’t left the city in time were trapped in their homes or shelters, buried by a shower of pumice stones and lapilli or killed by...

pompeiisites.org

 

[J regia]

Indeed. Based on the description in Genesis 13: 1-12, a person should be able to view a well-watered area from the foothills. It was land similar to Egypt -at that time- and people traveling this route would have viewed the Jordan running through it. Lot's travel route from Bethel and Ai located a bit north of Jericho to the west when moving eastward toward Sodom and Gomorrah provides a direction.


View attachment 581

...........

Map credit: Dr. Steven Collins

But even if the story in Gen 19 describes the impact of an asteroid or a meteorite or an exploding meteor near the Jordan River, it was still just an insignificant minor event compared to the event that caused the extinction of the dinosaurs.

 

[inertia]

But even if the story in Gen 19 describes the impact of an asteroid or a meteorite or an exploding meteor near the Jordan River, it was still just an insignificant minor event compared to the event that caused the extinction of the dinosaurs.

The Sodomites wouldn't have understood the significance of the Cretaceous-Tertiary (K-T) boundary if they looked at it. Iridium wasn't in their vocabulary. Even if they understood, and their knowledge was long lost, I suspect their indulgence with sexual immorality (pursuing unnatural desire) would have continued. Their doom was sealed. The meteor's vector wasn't going to change.

 

[J regia]

The Sodomites wouldn't have understood the significance of the Cretaceous-Tertiary (K-T) boundary if they looked at it. Iridium wasn't in their vocabulary. Even if they understood, and their knowledge was long lost, I suspect their indulgence with sexual immorality (pursuing unnatural desire) would have continued. Their doom was sealed. The meteor's vector wasn't going to change.

And the dinosaurs fate was sealed too since the asteroid's vector wasn't going to change, and unlike tiny meteors, it didn't just burn up in the atmosphere.

The only sexual immorality described in that story, however, is when Lot sexually assaulted the future wives of his sons in law after he tried to pimp them and mocked his sons in law when they wanted to know what Lot was up to with the two blokes he picked down town (Gen 19).

And why didn't Abraham's god condemn him for having a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and committing adultery with Hagar when they shared a non kosher meal together and had a face to face discussion about the number righteous children in Gomorrah before the god walked down to count them (Gen 18)?

 

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The geological discussion aside the whole biblical story of Sodom and Gomorrah is precisely that. A story.

 

[J regia]

The geological discussion aside the whole biblical story of Sodom and Gomorrah is precisely that. A story.

And if the story is based on an actual event then it was probably based on a volcanic eruption such as Santorini, and not a short event of only a minute or so from a bursting meteorite or asteroid.

 

[ByzantiumNovum]

Just noticed this forum and can't help but revive the pointless argument that can obviously go nowhere, haha!

As a history enthusiast that's neither Christian or hard core skeptic, I'm finding this an interesting topic. So far the evidence at present seems to be:

1. According to non-religious scientists, Tall el Hammam seems to have been destroyed by "A catastrophic heat event" which leveled it and several other in the Jordan/Israel area around the Red Sea. At Tal el Hammam evidence shows this event created the substance Trinitite, which is a melting of silicates which occurs during nuclear explosions. So far this seems to show an energy event worse than even the pyroclastic flow
which occurred in Pompeii during the eruption of Vesuvius.

2. There seems to be no volcano near this region of the Dead Sea; no lava or any other evidence of a purely geological event.

3. The current official scientific interpretation of the site suggests that a large comet entered the atmosphere here but exploded with force in the air before striking the ground. I have not seen an estimate of the megatons of energy created in such an event but it would seem to be very high if Trinitite formed.

4. Sulfur can indeed be a major component of comets and there are there are several academic papers on the subject, including: https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/462/Suppl_1/S253/2633389

5. Sulfur balls/chunks are indeed found in the general area of this "catastrophic heat event". However they are found only where they would have fallen into water, and are recovered in areas where rivers and the Dead Sea subsequently receded. It is *theorized at this time* that sulfur did fall elsewhere but anything that did not strike water did burn in the event. Yes, sulfur is flammable.

It is difficult to claim 100% truth, but so far secular scientific evidence does seem to *at this time* generally support something close to the biblical account of Sodom and Gomorrah. Argument is inevitable - Christians very much want this to be Sodom, and secular skeptics really don't want there to be any event which might encourage more general religion and religious belief.

My personal take is this may just be a historical event which was at the time interpreted in a religious context. A comet in essence hit the earth. So what? We know meteorites and other celestial bits have struck the planet before. A part of Phoenician civilization got wiped out in the event. Is that proof of God's punishment, or simple horrible luck? Not all Canaanites were destroyed and Phoenician civilization continued after all. If stellar events like this are proof of Divine action then God hated dinosaurs MUCH more than he ever hated Canaanites.

It's hard to blame the ancient Israelites though... If something comes from space and dusts off your enemies right before your eyes, what are you going to do besides say "SEE? God HATES those guys!!!"

As far as the Argument over this, it seems to me everyone can take a win here if they want to. The Christians can fairly reasonably consider this a probable confirmation of an event mentioned in the bible. Worry about the spread of religion aside, secular science can consider this a wealth of archaeological, geological and astronomical scientific data.... that has as reasonable explanation just like the KT (Cretaceous-Tertiary Mass Extinction Event) around 65 million years ago.

 

[inertia]

Just noticed this forum and can't help but revive the pointless argument that can obviously go nowhere, haha!

As a history enthusiast that's neither Christian or hard core skeptic, I'm finding this an interesting topic. So far the evidence at present seems to be:

1. According to non-religious scientists, Tall el Hammam seems to have been destroyed by "A catastrophic heat event" which leveled it and several other in the Jordan/Israel area around the Red Sea. At Tal el Hammam evidence shows this event created the substance Trinitite, which is a melting of silicates which occurs during nuclear explosions. So far this seems to show an energy event worse than even the pyroclastic flow
which occurred in Pompeii during the eruption of Vesuvius.

2. There seems to be no volcano near this region of the Dead Sea; no lava or any other evidence of a purely geological event.

3. The current official scientific interpretation of the site suggests that a large comet entered the atmosphere here but exploded with force in the air before striking the ground. I have not seen an estimate of the megatons of energy created in such an event but it would seem to be very high if Trinitite formed.

4. Sulfur can indeed be a major component of comets and there are there are several academic papers on the subject, including: https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/462/Suppl_1/S253/2633389

5. Sulfur balls/chunks are indeed found in the general area of this "catastrophic heat event". However they are found only where they would have fallen into water, and are recovered in areas where rivers and the Dead Sea subsequently receded. It is *theorized at this time* that sulfur did fall elsewhere but anything that did not strike water did burn in the event. Yes, sulfur is flammable.

It is difficult to claim 100% truth, but so far secular scientific evidence does seem to *at this time* generally support something close to the biblical account of Sodom and Gomorrah. Argument is inevitable - Christians very much want this to be Sodom, and secular skeptics really don't want there to be any event which might encourage more general religion and religious belief.

My personal take is this may just be a historical event which was at the time interpreted in a religious context. A comet in essence hit the earth. So what? We know meteorites and other celestial bits have struck the planet before. A part of Phoenician civilization got wiped out in the event. Is that proof of God's punishment, or simple horrible luck? Not all Canaanites were destroyed and Phoenician civilization continued after all. If stellar events like this are proof of Divine action then God hated dinosaurs MUCH more than he ever hated Canaanites.

It's hard to blame the ancient Israelites though... If something comes from space and dusts off your enemies right before your eyes, what are you going to do besides say "SEE? God HATES those guys!!!"

As far as the Argument over this, it seems to me everyone can take a win here if they want to. The Christians can fairly reasonably consider this a probable confirmation of an event mentioned in the bible. Worry about the spread of religion aside, secular science can consider this a wealth of archaeological, geological and astronomical scientific data.... that has as reasonable explanation just like the KT (Cretaceous-Tertiary Mass Extinction Event) around 65 million years ago.

Thanks for joining in the conversation.

A scientific investigation published by Nature in Sept. 2021 concerning the Tall - el Hammam site (map in post #50) provides evidence that an airburst from a meteor impact event destroyed the Middle-Bronze-Age city. Shocked quartz was also found and it is produced by meteor impacts and meteor airbursts.

-- > About finding trinitite (green glass), according to the report:

"On the interior surface of the potsherd, mineral inclusions are unmelted. On the other hand, most minerals embedded in the exposed or exterior surface of the potsherd exhibit significant melting during which the matrix was transformed into greenish, translucent glass."


Image Credit: Wikipedia creative commons, translucent green glass
produced from an atomic blast

______
.

 

[The Pixie]

Just noticed this forum and can't help but revive the pointless argument that can obviously go nowhere, haha!

As a history enthusiast that's neither Christian or hard core skeptic, I'm finding this an interesting topic. So far the evidence at present seems to be:

1. According to non-religious scientists, Tall el Hammam seems to have been destroyed by "A catastrophic heat event" which leveled it and several other in the Jordan/Israel area around the Red Sea. At Tal el Hammam evidence shows this event created the substance Trinitite, which is a melting of silicates which occurs during nuclear explosions. So far this seems to show an energy event worse than even the pyroclastic flow
which occurred in Pompeii during the eruption of Vesuvius.

2. There seems to be no volcano near this region of the Dead Sea; no lava or any other evidence of a purely geological event.

3. The current official scientific interpretation of the site suggests that a large comet entered the atmosphere here but exploded with force in the air before striking the ground. I have not seen an estimate of the megatons of energy created in such an event but it would seem to be very high if Trinitite formed.

4. Sulfur can indeed be a major component of comets and there are there are several academic papers on the subject, including: https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/462/Suppl_1/S253/2633389

5. Sulfur balls/chunks are indeed found in the general area of this "catastrophic heat event". However they are found only where they would have fallen into water, and are recovered in areas where rivers and the Dead Sea subsequently receded. It is *theorized at this time* that sulfur did fall elsewhere but anything that did not strike water did burn in the event. Yes, sulfur is flammable.

It is difficult to claim 100% truth, but so far secular scientific evidence does seem to *at this time* generally support something close to the biblical account of Sodom and Gomorrah. Argument is inevitable - Christians very much want this to be Sodom, and secular skeptics really don't want there to be any event which might encourage more general religion and religious belief.

My personal take is this may just be a historical event which was at the time interpreted in a religious context. A comet in essence hit the earth. So what? We know meteorites and other celestial bits have struck the planet before. A part of Phoenician civilization got wiped out in the event. Is that proof of God's punishment, or simple horrible luck? Not all Canaanites were destroyed and Phoenician civilization continued after all. If stellar events like this are proof of Divine action then God hated dinosaurs MUCH more than he ever hated Canaanites.

It's hard to blame the ancient Israelites though... If something comes from space and dusts off your enemies right before your eyes, what are you going to do besides say "SEE? God HATES those guys!!!"

As far as the Argument over this, it seems to me everyone can take a win here if they want to. The Christians can fairly reasonably consider this a probable confirmation of an event mentioned in the bible. Worry about the spread of religion aside, secular science can consider this a wealth of archaeological, geological and astronomical scientific data.... that has as reasonable explanation just like the KT (Cretaceous-Tertiary Mass Extinction Event) around 65 million years ago.

I am a hard core skeptic, but I have no problem with what you say. The destruction of Sodom likely was based on a real event, and what you describe seems to fit. A lot of the stuff in the OT did happen, and this is likely one of them.