Suppose the Resurrection was proven false, what would explain the Gospels?

5wize

Well-known member
You refer to Matt. 27:
"the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

I recall a tradition outside the Bible that 2 sons of a high priest reenlivened at this time. Unfortunately, I don't remember the details.

One problem with proving or disproving the verse in Matthew is that it doesn't give more details about this incident. It makes it sound like dozens of graves physically broke open within a few days after Easter Sunday, walked into Jerusalem and were seen by dozens.
However, closer analysis raises questions like whether the physical graves broke open physically and literally, or if the grave opening refers to a transformed spirit body rising through a closed grave. If it means the former, then who if anyone witnessed the grave literally opening?

Depending on the details of the event, Josephus might not have included it, considering the event to be unsubstantiated visions.

If you are looking for stronger counterarguments to the Resurrection of Christ, let me point you to my thread on the topic.
You seem to be trying too hard to rationalize events you would never entertain for any tradition other than Christianity. Ask yourself honestly why that is.

You missed the strongest counterargument to the resurrection of them all... They just do not happen - ever.
 

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
You seem to be trying too hard to rationalize events you would never entertain for any tradition other than Christianity. Ask yourself honestly why that is.

You missed the strongest counterargument to the resurrection of them all... They just do not happen - ever.
Jesus rose from the dead but the spiritually blind cannot understand nor receive that truth.
 

rakovsky

Well-known member
Someone who mistakenly thinks they've won the lottery, will have the same thoughts and feelings as someone who has.
Did you get that analogy from me? I remember using it as a counterargument to the same argument in an earlier list of arguments on the Resurrection.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Jesus rose from the dead but the spiritually blind cannot understand nor receive that truth.
There is no such thing as "spiritual" blindness. Blindness refers only to physical sight concerning the eyes and there really is no definition of the "spirit" that doesn't deconstruct into merely some form of emotional consciousness or sentience.. Theological concepts survive by taking meanings of words and bending them to make supernatural use cases that simply do not exist, but somehow sound like something plausible. Using slick, but incomprehensible language alone to try and give form and substance to the incredible does not create a reality. As is easily pointed out... most theological concepts fall apart like wet toilet paper once you dissect the words and the intended use. Spiritual blindness is not a thing. Spirit is not a thing, and only eyes go blind. Eyes are the only thing that blindness refers too.
 
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Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
There is no such thing as "spiritual" blindness. Blindness refers only to physical sight concerning the eyes and there really is no definition of the "spirit" that doesn't deconstruct into merely some form of emotional consciousness or sentience.. Theological concepts survive by taking meanings of words and bending them to make use cases that simply do not exist sound like something plausible with language alone. But as I just pointed out... it falls apart like wet tiolet paper once you dissect the words and the intended use. Spiritual blindness is not a thing. Spirit is not a thing, and only eyes go blind. Eyes are the only thing that blindness refers too.
Ok your partially right I misspoke I should have said the spiritual dead cannot receive, believe , nor understand the truth; consequently, the spiritually blind are blind because they are spiritually dead, and the dead obviously cannot see.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Ok your partially right I misspoke I should have said the spiritual dead cannot receive, believe , nor understand the truth; consequently, the spiritually blind are blind because they are spiritually dead, and the dead obviously cannot see.
There you go again. Trying to make silk purse theology out of sow's ear language. Spirit deconstructs into emotional thinking and it can't die because it does not live, and it cannot go blind because it cannot see. Do you now what those words mean, spirit, blind, dead and what types of things those word actually refer to in reality?
 

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
There you go again. Trying to make silk purse theology out of sow's ear language. Spirit deconstructs into emotional thinking and it can't die because it does not live, and it cannot go blind because it cannot see. Do you now what those words mean, spirit, blind, dead and what types of things those word actually refer to in reality?
Everyone answers to God in the end, and I suggest you don’t step into eternity without Jesus. Now you can analyze and deny that truth but it changes nothing.
 

Howie

Well-known member
There is no such thing as "spiritual" blindness. Blindness refers only to physical sight concerning the eyes and there really is no definition of the "spirit" that doesn't deconstruct into merely some form of emotional consciousness or sentience.. Theological concepts survive by taking meanings of words and bending them to make supernatural use cases that simply do not exist, but somehow sound like something plausible. Using slick, but incomprehensible language alone to try and give form and substance to the incredible does not create a reality. As is easily pointed out... most theological concepts fall apart like wet toilet paper once you dissect the words and the intended use. Spiritual blindness is not a thing. Spirit is not a thing, and only eyes go blind. Eyes are the only thing that blindness refers too.
Oy vey! Your post epitomizes Spiritual blindnes, defined and explained here.
 

rakovsky

Well-known member
Really? What warrant do you have to believe in some personal eternal future when you know you did not have a personal eternal past? Kind of an odd dogma there. You have absolute evidence of your past non-existence and zero evidence of your belief in a personal future eternity. How do you wash that out? <==== your answer to that is what we're going to call an apologetic. Good luck! Don't make it too crazy or rooted in in ancient superstition. God's credibility is in your hands.
One's hypothetical prebirth past is distinguishable from one's post death future, such that lack of knowledge or evidence of that past does not conflict with a post death future.

A common idea is that life starts at conception, and that the soul can survive death. In that case, the person's experience can be charted, starting at one point and then continuing onward past death:
●==========[death]========>>>>>

The distinction is that the person does not exist yet before birth, yet can continue to exist beyond death, because in this paradigm, birth is considered the starting point of one's life experience, but physical death is not.

Other distinctions can be made as well. If theoretically you did exist before birth as per the theory of reincarnation, then this could explain claims of past Reincarnation. However, typically people don't remember those past lives, perhaps because of the mind body connection- ie. One's current brain in the current life does not retain those past life memories. However, after death, when one is separated from the physical brain, one's soul or mind could still have future experiences, but one would be experiencing them without them being recorded in the dead physical brain.
 

5wize

Well-known member
One's hypothetical prebirth past is distinguishable from one's post death future, such that lack of knowledge or evidence of that past does not conflict with a post death future.

A common idea is that life starts at conception, and that the soul can survive death. In that case, the person's experience can be charted, starting at one point and then continuing onward past death:
●==========[death]========>>>>>

The distinction is that the person does not exist yet before birth, yet can continue to exist beyond death, because in this paradigm, birth is considered the starting point of one's life experience, but physical death is not.

Other distinctions can be made as well. If theoretically you did exist before birth as per the theory of reincarnation, then this could explain claims of past Reincarnation. However, typically people don't remember those past lives, perhaps because of the mind body connection- ie. One's current brain in the current life does not retain those past life memories. However, after death, when one is separated from the physical brain, one's soul or mind could still have future experiences, but one would be experiencing them without them being recorded in the dead physical brain.
But that distinction relies on the spirit or the soul surviving the elimination of what brought it to be...... the physical conception. It's really that simple. What you are trying to claim survives death emerges only from that which does not. It's not a reconcilable belief.
 
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rakovsky

Well-known member
Honestly, I doubt you embarrass very many.
Sometimes when I get into internet debates and feel that I haven't proved my POV to the other person and am wearing out after numerous messages, I worry that it would mean that the other side "wins" if I stop replying.
 

5wize

Well-known member
And your disbelief does not make it untrue it just means you do not know truth. You are not as intelligent or enlightened as you think you are.
Your belief does not comport with any reality. That's a strong weight on the side of my unbelief being more credible than your belief. That is an imbalance that even death will hold to.... because it always has as long as there have been humans.
 

rakovsky

Well-known member
Long story short, my cleaning lady's daughter was with her one Saturday. I had to go out to an important lunch date. At lunch I remembered taking off the diamond ring with 3 large diamonds on it (my mother's engagement ring), and failed to put it away properly. When I came home the ring was missing and they had already left. So I called her and asked her where she put it. She said she hadn't seen it at all. Anyway, I kept her as my cleaning lady and every month asked her to look for my ring.

About six months later after almost getting an ulcer from worrying about that ring, and tearing up the house to look for it myself a few times, I decided I was going to have to just clench my teeth and tell my mother. But before, I wanted to write down how I was going to break the news. I had just written "Hi, mom" and I heard the voice say, "Don't worry you will find it when you move," along with a vision of the top drawer of a small dresser across the room. So of course, I went to the drawer and took everything out piece by piece until there was nothing left except an antique brass screw that went with the dresser. Nothing else. So I piled everything back into the drawer.

Another 4 months go by and I'm still sick with worry. So I sit down on the sofa again to write out what I was going to say. Again all I wrote was "Hi mom," and the same thing happened. First the voice, "Don't worry, you will find it when you move." And the same vision of that top drawer. Again I tore through that drawer, and nothing but the brass screw.

Now 15 months total had gone by and I was finally moving after 9 years in that apartment, and when I took out everything in that drawer to put in a black bag to make the dresser lighter, there was the diamond ring, and the brass screw had disappeared. You may want to say the cleaning lady just happened to put it in that drawer after finding that her daughter had stolen it. That would have been nice, except why turn around and steal the brass screw?

cc: @Tiburon
In your initial description earlier, God turned a screw into a diamond ring.
In your follow up story here, apparently either God, another unknown force, or your cleaning lady switched a brass screw with your missing diamond ring.
 

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
Your belief does not comport with any reality. That's a strong weight on the side of my unbelief being more credible than your belief. That is an imbalance that even death will hold to.... because it always has as long as there have been humans.
Your disbelief and bias blinded you to all and every witness to the miracles Jesus performed not to mention the multitude of eye witness accounts of His resurrection. You made a choice of what you will believe and not believe and you chose wrong. Your loss not mine.
 
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