Surviving Jaredite Names in Mesoamerica

[brotherofJared]

Joseph Smith saw a map with Nehem/Nehhm on it. When these maps were first discovered,they were dismissed as evidence for the Book of Mormon because they didn’t prove the place was there in 600 BC. Now that archaeology confirms NHM is older than 600 BC,these maps are suddenly supposed to explain how Joseph Smith knew that?

And another anachronism disappears. Amazing how that happens.

 

[brotherofJared]

Several of these are already in the video, and yet people still respond with these objections. So odds are this preemptive effort is in vain

Huh. Where else have we seen this?

 

[brotherofJared]

Wikipedia
Cannibalism in pre-Columbian America

There is universal agreement that some Mesoamerican people practiced human sacrifice and cannibalism, but there is no scholarly consensus as to its extent.
Moroni 9:7-8

I have to wonder when this "universal agreement" was made.

 

[brotherofJared]

Sorry, but no, it isn't the "final evidence."

Was there a six? I only saw five.

 

[brotherofJared]

Read my last post,

Why? Do you think if I read it again I will change my mind?

 

[brotherofJared]

People ALL over the world are the same--they have been making war against each other for thousands of years.

The argument isn't even about war. It's about preparations for war and the archaeological evidence that connects with the Book of Mormon. But, as long as we're talking about wars, as I pointed out, which you really don't seem to grasp, is that until 1970, scholars believed that Mesoamerican inhabitants were mostly peaceful, meditative peoples. Boy, were they wrong about that. But the Book of Mormon wasn't.

 

[brotherofJared]

From mrm.org:

Well, there's your first problem. I don't trust anything that comes from this site. I've already shown that their sources don't match the quotes provided. It's a propaganda machine, it's not a source.

 

[brotherofJared]

You call this evidence?

Yes. See the man with a beard? Have you ever seen an Indian with a beard like that? NVM. Of course, you have.

 

[brotherofJared]

Part 2:



Same link as in the last post. Now, Emma Smith, Whitmer, and Harris cannot be considered hostile witnesses, can they?

Geez. Let me know when you want to actually argue the same topic. I completely agree that Joseph translated from looking at a stone in a hat. I even said that. That's not the argument. I even posed the question, how did Joseph manage to create Chiasims reading with his face stuck in a hat.

That's not the argument. No one knows what went on in that hat, how it worked, or what he actually saw.

Let's examine your assertion:
"But Smith claimed to get the BoM from God and to write it down exactly as God directed him to,"
Joseph Smith got the BoM from an angel, not from God. But I assume you meant that God gave him the translation of the BoM, but Joseph actually got the translation from a stone in a hat. What went on in that hat, only Joseph Smith knew and he never explained how it worked.

The "write it down exactly as God directed him to", I don't know what you mean by that either. If you meant to have a scribe write it down is how God directed him to do it, then I'll agree with that part, but Joseph Smith didn't claim that God directed him to do that. Leastways, not that I know of, but I suspect that what you meant was that God directed Joseph Smith exactly what to have written down. And Joseph Smith never claimed any such thing either.

Of course, the power and gift of God would imply God's influence over what was written, but the idea that God exerted some kind of strict control so that it would warrant a claim such as the one you made, "write it down exactly as God directed him to", is unfounded, IMO. If that were so and Joseph believed it to be so, he would not have made any changes to the text. Since Joseph did edit the text for editions after the 1830 edition, it appears that no such "exactness" was required or directed.

However, as has been shown by the evidence provided in this thread, many of those grammatical errors are not errors at all. Case in point, the verbiage used in the 1830 edition that uses rent as a noun

 

[Magdalena]

Geez. Let me know when you want to actually argue the same topic. I completely agree that Joseph translated from looking at a stone in a hat. I even said that. That's not the argument. I even posed the question, how did Joseph manage to create Chiasims reading with his face stuck in a hat.

That's not the argument. No one knows what went on in that hat, how it worked, or what he actually saw.

Let's examine your assertion:
"But Smith claimed to get the BoM from God and to write it down exactly as God directed him to,"
Joseph Smith got the BoM from an angel, not from God. But I assume you meant that God gave him the translation of the BoM, but Joseph actually got the translation from a stone in a hat. What went on in that hat, only Joseph Smith knew and he never explained how it worked.

The "write it down exactly as God directed him to", I don't know what you mean by that either. If you meant to have a scribe write it down is how God directed him to do it, then I'll agree with that part, but Joseph Smith didn't claim that God directed him to do that. Leastways, not that I know of, but I suspect that what you meant was that God directed Joseph Smith exactly what to have written down. And Joseph Smith never claimed any such thing either.

Of course, the power and gift of God would imply God's influence over what was written, but the idea that God exerted some kind of strict control so that it would warrant a claim such as the one you made, "write it down exactly as God directed him to", is unfounded, IMO. If that were so and Joseph believed it to be so, he would not have made any changes to the text. Since Joseph did edit the text for editions after the 1830 edition, it appears that no such "exactness" was required or directed.

However, as has been shown by the evidence provided in this thread, many of those grammatical errors are not errors at all. Case in point, the verbiage used in the 1830 edition that uses rent as a noun

Actually, Smith’s scribes explained it in detail...

“I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” ~ An Address to All Believers in Christ, David Whitmer, page 12

“By aid of the Seer Stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say ‘written;’ and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another appear in its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used”. ~ Brigham H. Roberts, Seventy, Comprehensive History of the Church, 1:129

“In his Comprehensive History of the Church (CHC), LDS historian and Seventy Brigham H. Roberts quotes Martin Harris, one of the three witnesses whose name is found in every edition of the Book of Mormon since its original edition. Harris said that Smith possessed a seer stone, described by Roberts as a “chocolate-colored, somewhat egg-shaped stone which the Prophet found while digging a well in company with his brother Hyrum.” Roberts goes on to state that it was by using this stone that “Joseph was able to translate the characters engraven on the plates” (CHC 1:129).

 

[Magdalena]

Sorry, Bonnie, looking back I see that you’ve already used some of these quotes from Smith’s scribes.

They were the ones who were there with Smith. Even Emma said he put his head in his hat to dictate the book.

 

[Bonnie]

Yes. See the man with a beard? Have you ever seen an Indian with a beard like that? NVM. Of course, you have.

No. But one cannot say that the BoM is true from one stone carving of someone who appears to have a beard. One swallow does not make a summer. And it is possible that a few people from the old world could have been blown to the new world on boats--but that is a far cry from vast migrations of people who supposedly came from the Middle East to settle in N. and S. America.

Also people from the Middle East, Semites, are Caucasians. Indians from N. and S. America are Mongoloid race. Not the same.

 

[Bonnie]

The argument isn't even about war. It's about preparations for war and the archaeological evidence that connects with the Book of Mormon. But, as long as we're talking about wars, as I pointed out, which you really don't seem to grasp, is that until 1970, scholars believed that Mesoamerican inhabitants were mostly peaceful, meditative peoples. Boy, were they wrong about that. But the Book of Mormon wasn't.

I grasp it just fine. But what YOU don't seem to grasp is that people all over the world have made war since antiquity and much of the preparations for war are going to be similar all over. So, the Mesoamericans were hardly unique. And that is hardly evidence for the BoM.

 

[Bonnie]

Well, there's your first problem. I don't trust anything that comes from this site. I've already shown that their sources don't match the quotes provided. It's a propaganda machine, it's not a source.

So, why should we trust anything posted on here from a pro-Mormon site? Whose agenda is to do anything possible to prove the BoM to be true?

MRM.org is not a propaganda machine. It is thoroughly researched. So is utlm.org. You just don't like it because it shows the truth.

 

[Bonnie]

Geez. Let me know when you want to actually argue the same topic. I completely agree that Joseph translated from looking at a stone in a hat. I even said that. That's not the argument. I even posed the question, how did Joseph manage to create Chiasims reading with his face stuck in a hat.

That's not the argument. No one knows what went on in that hat, how it worked, or what he actually saw.

Let's examine your assertion:
"But Smith claimed to get the BoM from God and to write it down exactly as God directed him to,"
Joseph Smith got the BoM from an angel, not from God. But I assume you meant that God gave him the translation of the BoM, but Joseph actually got the translation from a stone in a hat. What went on in that hat, only Joseph Smith knew and he never explained how it worked.

The "write it down exactly as God directed him to", I don't know what you mean by that either. If you meant to have a scribe write it down is how God directed him to do it, then I'll agree with that part, but Joseph Smith didn't claim that God directed him to do that. Leastways, not that I know of, but I suspect that what you meant was that God directed Joseph Smith exactly what to have written down. And Joseph Smith never claimed any such thing either.

Of course, the power and gift of God would imply God's influence over what was written, but the idea that God exerted some kind of strict control so that it would warrant a claim such as the one you made, "write it down exactly as God directed him to", is unfounded, IMO. If that were so and Joseph believed it to be so, he would not have made any changes to the text. Since Joseph did edit the text for editions after the 1830 edition, it appears that no such "exactness" was required or directed.

However, as has been shown by the evidence provided in this thread, many of those grammatical errors are not errors at all. Case in point, the verbiage used in the 1830 edition that uses rent as a noun

Oh, so your God didn't direct Smith to write things down correctly, so that he had to edit and change things....so, your God did a lousy job of influencing Smith, eh?

“By aid of the Seer Stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say ‘written;’ and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another appear in its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used”. ~ Brigham H. Roberts, Seventy, Comprehensive History of the Church, 1:129

So, kindly do not try to tell us that Smith didn't translate precisely as your God supposedly wanted him to. Notice the bolded part--"just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."

Using "rent' as a noun isn't necessarily ungrammatical. What IS ungrammatical is all of the errors Smith made with double negatives, not having the verb agree with the subject, using the wrong word entirely--things like that. I put down examples to that on here earlier. I can do it again. In fact, here is the link:

untitled (apologeticspress.org)

Joseph F. Smith, sixth president of the Mormon church, said: “Some persons have thought that the Lord revealed to Joseph the ideas, and that Joseph conveyed those ideas into the English language. But this is not so. The Lord gave not only the ideas but the language itself—the very words” (The Territorial Inquirer, March 2, 1881, emp. added). Again, he explained: Joseph did not render the writing on the gold plates into the English language in his own style of language as many people believe, but every word and letter was given to him by the gift and power of God.... The Lord caused each word spelled as it is in the book to appear on the stones in short sentences or words, and when Joseph had uttered the sentence or word before him and the scribe had written it properly, that sentence would disappear and another would appear. And if there was as a word wrongly written or even a letter incorrect, the writing on the stone would remain there (Journal of Oliver Huntington, Utah State Historical Society, p. 168, emp. added).

So, did your "prophet" Joseph F. Smith lie?
More in the next post.

 

[Bonnie]

” And finally, regarding the original manuscript, Joseph Smith himself claimed that he and the three witnesses were told by God: “These plates have been ...translated by the power of God. The translation of them which you have seen is correct” (History of the Church, 1:54-55, emp. added).

here are misspellings; sorry for the format:

“journied” (for journeyed; 1 Nephi 4:38; 5:6; 7:6; 18:25; 2 Nephi 5:7; Omni 1:16) • “bellowses” (for bellows; 1 Nephi 17:11) • “feading” (for feeding; Enos 1:20) • “sayeth” (for saith; Mosiah 12:21) • “bablings” (for babblings; Alma 1:32) • “tempels” (for temples; Alma 16:13) • “yars” (for years; Alma 19:16) • “phrensied” (for frenzied; Alma 30:16) • “eigth” (for eighth; Alma 53:23) • “adhear” (for adhere; Alma 60:34) • “eatheth” (for eateth; 3 Nephi 20:8) • “rereward” (for rearward; 3 Nephi 20:42; 21:29)

now, for bad grammar:

“Behold, for none of these I cannot hope” (2 Nephi 33:9). • “And Mosiah, nor the people of Mosiah, could not understand them” (Omni 1:17). • “And now behold the Lamanites could not retreat neither way” (Helaman 1:31). • “Yea, if my days could have been in them days” (Helaman 7:8). • “And it came to pass that there was certain men passing by” (Helaman 7:11). • “That all might see the writing which he had wrote” (Alma 46:19). • “I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord gave these commandments” (Alma 13:1). [still exists in recent editions] • “They did not fight against God no more” (Alma 23:7). • “I have wrote to them” (3 Nephi 26:8). • “I were about to write to them” (3 Nephi 26:11). • “...the gates of hell is...” (3 Nephi 18:13). • “...the multitude had all eat” (3 Nephi 20:9). • “I Moroni have written the words which was commanded” (Ether 5:1). • “The law had ought to be done away” (2 Nephi 25:27). • “...which was wrote upon the plates...” (Alma 44:24). • “Adam and Eve, which was our first parents...,” (1 Nephi 5:11). • “...who was the most foremost among them” (Alma 32:5). • “...that there might not be no more sorrow” (Alma 29:2). • “And this he done” (Alma 2:10). • In the first chapter alone of the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 1, which has only 20 verses), there are no less than four such errors. Two examples are: “My father had read and saw,” and “the tender mercies of the Lord is...."

So, God inspired your "prophet" to use bad spelling and bad grammar? As the author of this article noted: "It should be remembered that Joseph Smith himself said that any mistakes were corrected as they were detected. The misspelled words alone show any claim of inspiration for the Book of Mormon is fraudulent."

untitled (apologeticspress.org)

 

[Bonnie]

Again, I appreciate your opinion, but it isn't even in the ballpark. The evidence is real. It is irrefutable. Your opinion is neither.

No, it isn't irrefutable, as I showed in the beginning of this thread, about the names. They either are found in the Bible, which Smith copied, or joseph took existing names and tweaked them a little. Anyone could do that. It is hardly proof.

Now, if the American Indians are supposed to be Laminites and descendants of people from ancient Israel, kindly tell us how they changed their race from Caucasian to Mongoloid....

 

[Bonnie]

all, of which, have been educated by the great propagandist machines MRM and UTLM and some of them will even deny that they got any of their information from those sites (but conveniently quote from them anyway.)

Those sites have tons of Mormon writings on them and are thoroughly cited, so anyone can look them up to see more context, if necessary. But even when I have posted something directly from lds.org, to prove that your church teaches something, I am still not believed--like proving that HF and HM, though flesh and bone, have SPIRIT children, after a Mormon on here said that when HM has children, she has physical children. I also proved to another Mormon on here from lds.org that Smith DID marry other women, including other men's wives, and I got that info directly from lds.org in its essay "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo" (I think that is what it was called; the names may be reversed). Yet STILL this Mormon denied it, and also denied that some of these marriages were sealed in the temple. He and Markk went on about this for several months.

This same Mormon denied that his church teaches that God was once and man and that man can become Gods. Both Markk and I proved from lds.org that your church does indeed teach that. And also teaches that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. ALL from Mormon writings. Which, incidentally, both mrm.org and utlm.org quote from. Well-cited.

And the Mormon sources for all of this stuff posted on here are not propaganda machines for Mormonism....?

 

[Magdalena]

Used too?

You know, The entire civilized world, as we know it, used to teach that the world was flat and that the earth was the center of the universe.

Please show me where any of them said, "Thus saith the Lord God, native Americans are lamanites". Did they ever say God said it? Nope.

You can run, but you can’t hide. This post you’ve been ignoring will catch up with you.

Surviving Jaredite Names in Mesoamerica

You’re the Mormon. You explain it. You're a critic. You explain it. I believe Joseph Smith explained it pretty well. He received it by the power of God. Now it's your turn (as it's always been).

forums.carm.org

 

[Bonnie]

As you wish...

William Armitage (1857–1940), Joseph Smith Preaching to the Indians, c. 1870.
“Let the Government of the United States also continue to gather together, and to colonize the tribes and remnants of Israel (the Indians), and also to feed, clothe, succor, and protect them, and endeavor to civilize and unite; and also to bring them to the knowledge of their Israelitish origin, and of the fulness of the gospel which was revealed to, and written by, their forefathers on this land;… He has revealed the origin and the Records of the aboriginal tribes of America, and their future destiny. —And we know it. He has revealed the fulness of the gospel, with its gifts, blessings, and ordinances. —And we know it. He has commanded us to bear witness of it, first to the Gentiles and then to the remnants of Israel and the Jews. —And we know it. He has commanded us to gather together his Saints on this Continent, and build up holy cities and sanctuaries. —And we know it.” PROCLAMATION of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. New York April 6, 1845. James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-75), 1:, p.252-266

Natives Americans are Lamanites- We Know It-

“Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem…

bookofmormonevidence.org

There are several other quotes on this same link.

Here is one quote from your link:

I am asked to occupy the few minutes yet remaining: If the Spirit gives me liberty I will pursue the train of thought that has passed through my mind while Brother Richards has been speaking upon the spirit that has gone abroad upon the remnants of the house of Israel who occupy this land, the American Indians whom we understand to be the descendants of the Nephites, the Lamanites, the Lemuelites and the Ishmaelites who formerly possessed this land, whose fathers we have an account of in the Book of Mormon.” The Indians—The Influence of the Elders Among Them in the Interest of Peace, Etc. Discourse by Elder Erastus Snow, delivered at Logan, Sunday Afternoon, February 5th, 1882

THE HISTORY OF HIS FOREFATHERS
Mormon lived in that age of the world, and was a Nephite, and a Prophet of the Lord. He, by the commandment of the Lord, made an abridgment of the sacred records, which contained the history of his forefathers, and the Prophecies and Gospel which had been revealed among them; to which he added a sketch of the history of his own time, and the destruction of his nation. Previous to his death, the abridged records fell into the hands of his son Moroni, who continued them down to A. D. 420; at which time he deposited them carefully in the earth, on a hill which was then called Cumorah, but is situated in Ontario County, township of Manchester, and State of New York, North America. This he did in order to preserve them from the Lamanites, who overran the country, and sought to destroy them and all the records pertaining to the Nephites. This record lay concealed, or sealed up, from A. D. 420 to September 22, 1827, at which time it was found by Mr. Joseph Smith, jun., he being directed thither by an angel of the Lord.” A Voice of Warning, page 96 Parley P. Pratt

Here it twice mentions the Laminites. And one says that the Indians are their descendants.