Surviving Jaredite Names in Mesoamerica

[Bonnie]

That's what I thought.

your church still teaches that the American Indians came from the Lamanites.

That's not a problem for me. We learn as we grow. If that was your question in the beginning, I'd have no problem with it, but that's not what you said. Yes. The church believed, though I know of no church leader that said it was a God-given fact, nor does it appear that Joseph Smith ever taught it.

So, Smith never taught that the Indians were descendants of the Lamanites?

The fact of this issue is that you are reading into the narrative what you want. It's simply not there. As I stated, everyone is entitled to their opinions but that does not make them facts.

No, I am not. But it does sound as if the NA and SA continents were kept from being populated by anyone but the Jaredites/Nephites.

I must have missed it. Did I post that you were reading into it or are you talking about a different post?

you accused me of claiming you said something you did not. I made no such claim. I was asking you a question, if that is what you really thought about something (paraphrased). I proved conclusively from Mormon writings that what Smith wrote from his hat was supposed to be from God, both in idea and wording, and was correct when he dictated it and the scribes wrote it down exactly as Smith dictated it.. Apparently your god is a lousy speller and doesn't know proper English grammar.

Yep, or something to that effect. But, just in case you forgot what the argument was about. This is the statement I refuted: "Mormon prophets used to teach that all native Americans were Lamanites." Do you see the word "all" in there? Do you know what that means? Does the statement in the forepart of the BoM even come close to making that claim? So, Mormon prophets used to teach that? I'm still waiting. To be clear, we're talking about all native Americans and statements from Mormon prophets (and even Mormon prophets can have opinions. The only time becomes a doctrine of the church is when the prophet says God said it. )

Oh, you mean like when Young said that God revealed to him that Adam was our God? Not trying to change the subject, but that means it was a revelation from God. But after his death, the teaching was dropped. Which means your prophet taught false doctrines and was thus, a false prophet.

As I said, I have no problem that many early Mormons used to believe that all American Indians were Lamanites (and they might actually be, depends on what the Book of Mormon classifies as Lamanites - it's not very clear. I personally suspect that the Lamanites intermingled with the indigenous peoples in the area, diluting the bloodline to a point that all dark-skinned people were considered Lamanites regardless of who their parents were. But that's just my opinion.)

Glad you admit that it is only your personal opinion and not fact. And how convenient that the bloodlines of the indigenous people is too diluted to show up anymore....Of course, the Nephites, Jaredites, and other "ites" of the BoM are fictional ,so the point is moot, anyway.

But the keywords here are "used to". We used to believe the earth was flat and that it was the center of the universe and everything revolved around it and not that it revolved around the Sun.

We are not talking about what people used to think about the universe. We are talking about what your church teaches and taught about the American Indians. So, was Talmadge wrong? Were your early leaders wrong? Misinformed?

There are lots of things that we "used to" believe. But it doesn't make it a fact. The fact that there were other indigenous peoples on this continent before Lehi arrived doesn't present any problems for the Book of Mormon. There are no Nephites left. The Lamanites, whoever they were, were like a drop of fresh water in the Pacific ocean. Good luck trying to find it.

Well., there were no Levites, Jaredites, Mulekites, and Nephites to begin with, except in Joseph Smith's fertile imagination, so we are arguing basically about points in a fictitious book. It's like arguing about where Middle Earth was really located in the LORD OF THE RINGS.

Yep. I have to wonder who the other ancestors were. As I said, our leaders are entitled to their opinions. it doesn't make it a fact.

In other words, your church again has no proof. It is so much spin-doctoring because of the DNA analysis done of Indians in N., Central, and S. America. American Indians are of the Mongoloid race; Semites like the Jews are Caucasians.

 

[Bonnie]

Well, since we're arguing Mormonism, I would think that material from a Mormon website would be more accurate. That makes sense to me. Far more sense than going to a non-Mormon propaganda website that doesn't accurately quote its sources. I have demonstrated this. It's not worth it.

I have still quoted stuff from Mormon writers. LDS.org doesn't always have the quotes I am looking for. And It matters not where I found them, if they are quoted accurately. And yes, utlm.org and mrm.org do their best to quote accurately and cite their sources. But if they made a mistake, then by golly, you can write to them and tell them where they goofed but DO be sure to show them proof. I am sure they will appreciate the correction.

 

[Mesenja]

"In its smallest details,the Book of Mormon reveals its roots in the ancient Near East. For example, the system of exchange set out in Alma 11:3–19 recalls ancient Babylonian economic legislation.32" Mounting Evidence for the Book of Mormon By Daniel C. Peterson


32 Laws of Eshnunna and Nephite Economics,” Insights, December 1998, 2.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

Wasn't the Book of Mormon written in Reformed Egyptian, and not Hebrew?

Inconvenient observation.

 

[Bonnie]

"In its smallest details, the Book of Mormon reveals its roots in the ancient Near East. For example, the system of exchange set out in Alma 11:3–19 recalls ancient Babylonian economic legislation.32" Mounting Evidence for the Book of Mormon By Daniel C. Peterson


32 Laws of Eshnunna and Nephite Economics,” Insights, December 1998, 2.

Petersen is the guy who thinks "horses' in the BoM could be tapirs.....

 

[organgrinder]

I have still quoted stuff from Mormon writers. LDS.org doesn't always have the quotes I am looking for. And It matters not where I found them, if they are quoted accurately. And yes, utlm.org and mrm.org do their best to quote accurately and cite their sources. But if they made a mistake, then by golly, you can write to them and tell them where they goofed but DO be sure to show them proof. I am sure they will appreciate the correction.

Like that would ever happen. Inconvenient truth.

 

[Magdalena]

It's obvious you didn't read my post.

I didn't follow your link, but I have read it. I found it on my own. What do you think, in that link says anything different than what I posted? The reference you quoted says nothing about Lamanites being the aboriginals. The statement was by the apostles, not a prophet because at that time there was no prophet, president.

That's what I said in my post which exactly correlates with that quote. Try to keep up.

It was Joseph Smith, speaking to Native Americans, telling them about their “fathers,” the promises made to them in the Book of Mormon, and the “many things the Lord had revealed to me.”

EDITED--no links to unofficial Mormon websites allowed. Just name the site--bookofmormonevidence.--Moderator

 

[Bonnie]

EDITED

Look at the name of the article--and by Mormons, no less!

 

[Magdalena]

It was Joseph Smith, speaking to Native Americans, telling them about their “fathers,” the promises made to them in the Book of Mormon, and the “many things the Lord had revealed to me.”

EDITED--no links to unofficial Mormon websites allowed. Just name the site--bookofmormonevidence.--Moderator

Ok, thanks!

 

[Magdalena]

It was Joseph Smith, speaking to Native Americans, telling them about their “fathers,” the promises made to them in the Book of Mormon, and the “many things the Lord had revealed to me.”

EDITED--no links to unofficial Mormon websites allowed. Just name the site--bookofmormonevidence.--Moderator

That link was at bookofmormonevidence.com and the title of the article Native Americans are Lamanites - we know it.

That website has tons of articles about all things relating to the Book of Mormon... archeology, history, Joseph Smith, etc.

 

[Bonnie]

That link was at bookofmormonevidence.com and the title of the article Native Americans are Lamanites - we know it.

That website has tons of articles about all things relating to the Book of Mormon... archeology, history, Joseph Smith, etc.

I will vouch for you that that is the name of the article. "Native Americans are Lamanites--We Know It." Pretty bald and clear statement, wouldn't you say?

 

[Magdalena]

I will vouch for you that that is the name of the article. "Native Americans are Lamanites--We Know It." Pretty bald and clear statement, wouldn't you say?

Thanks, Bonnie. It would take some pretty crazy denial to get around that.

 

[imJRR]

Thanks, Bonnie. It would take some pretty crazy denial to get around that.

I'm willing to bet a very nice meal at Olive Garden that there will be.

 

[Magdalena]

I'm willing to bet a very nice meal at Olive Garden that there will be.

lol... I’m sure your right.

 

[brotherofJared]

your church still teaches that the American Indians came from the Lamanites.

No. It doesn't. If you want to know what our church still teaches on this subject, please refer to the introduction to the Book of Mormon.

So, Smith never taught that the Indians were descendants of the Lamanites?

I said what I meant. if you think Joseph Smith taught it, then please, give me a reference.

But it does sound as if the NA and SA continents were kept from being populated by anyone but the Jaredites/Nephites.

You're still manufacturing a narrative that we don't teach.

Oh, you mean like when Young said that God revealed to him that Adam was our God?

That's completely off topic and irrelevant.

 

[brotherofJared]

Petersen is the guy who thinks "horses' in the BoM could be tapirs.....

Or horses could be horses.

 

[brotherofJared]

It was Joseph Smith, speaking to Native Americans, telling them about their “fathers,” the promises made to them in the Book of Mormon, and the “many things the Lord had revealed to me.”

So? Where did he say that all American natives are descendants of Lamanites? Support your statement or admit that you were overly aggressive in your supposition.

 

[Magdalena]

So? Where did he say that all American natives are descendants of Lamanites? Support your statement or admit that you were overly aggressive in your supposition.

Did you read the article?

 

[John t]

I will vouch for you that that is the name of the article. "Native Americans are Lamanites--We Know It." Pretty bald and clear statement, wouldn't you say?

Here is something I found:

The Book of Mormon, among other things, revealed America as a new land of promise and traced the fortunes of pre-Columbian immigrants to America: the Jaredites, Lamanites (Native Americans) and the Nephites. After numerous battles between these groups, the righteous Nephites had been reduced by the Lamanites to only Mormon and his son, Moroni, who buried their book in A.D. 384, awaiting the day when God would raise up their spiritual descendants.​

Reid, D. G., Linder, R. D., Shelley, B. L., & Stout, H. S. (1990). In Dictionary of Christianity in America. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me. And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni. And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst. And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each. And it came to pass that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, and also a few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites, had fallen; and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth. (Mormon 6:11–15)​

Farkas, J. R., & Reed, D., A. (1995). Mormonism: changes, contradictions, and errors (electronic ed., p. 154). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House.


You are correct, Bonnie. Anyone saying differently is... well, acting like a Mormon

 

[brotherofJared]

Did you read the article?

I read what you said what he was referring to. If it's an article you've already posted, then I read it and it doesn't support your claim.