Bonnie
Super Member
What authority?
Surviving Jaredite Names in Mesoamerica
- Thread starter Mesenja
- Start date
Bonnie
Super Member
Wow, good link! People all over the world use ingenuity, don't they? Making the most of the materials available to them.Great link.
Since we know the Mayan ancestors came across from Siberia, I thought it would be interesting to see if the kinds of armor they used could be traced down over the migrations. From what I’ve read so far, in Siberia they used reindeer bones/antlers. As they moved south on this continent, changes were made in clothing, weapons and armor, according to what was available to them, and the weather.
26 Native American arms and armour and siberan ideas | arms and armour, armour, armor
Oct 5, 2014 - Explore Michael Curl's board "Native American arms and armour and siberan" on Pinterest. See more ideas about arms and armour, armour, armor.www.pinterest.com
Bonnie
Super Member
deleted
Bonnie
Super Member
So?
Hebrew language - Wikipedia
In its widest sense,Biblical Hebrew refers to the spoken language of ancient Israel flourishing between the 10th century BCE and the turn of the 4th century CE. ... Also called Old Hebrew or Paleo-Hebrew. It was written in the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet.
In its widest sense,Biblical Hebrew refers to the spoken language of ancient Israel flourishing between the 10th century BCE and the turn of the 4th century CE. ... Also called Old Hebrew or Paleo-Hebrew. It was written in the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet.
MORE balderdash!!
Since there is nothing proved from your OP about the non-extant Jaredite people and the equally non-extant Jaredite language, you are attempting to provide another irrelevant red herring about Hebrew. What Wikipedia says about Hebrew may or may not be correct; it is not important in the end. All you are doing is further destroying your OP, and in the process, you show how much dumb stuff Smith made up.
Don't you realize that it is easier to take the Bible at its word about things than to perpetuate absurdities that have no basis in time and space?
Revisiting “Sariah” at Elephantine
Neal Rappleye
April 5,2019
Interpreter:A Journal of Mormon Scripture
Abstract:Jeffrey R. Chadwick has previously called attention to the name ŚRYH (Seraiah/Sariah) as a Hebrew woman’s name in the Jewish community at Elephantine. Paul Y. Hoskisson, however,felt this evidence was not definitive because part of the text was missing and had to be restored. Now a more recently published ostracon from Elephantine,which contains a sure attestation of the name ŚRYH as a woman’s name without the need of restoration,satisfies Hoskisson’s call for more definitive evidence and makes it more likely that the name is correctly restored on the papyrus first noticed by Chadwick. The appearance of the name Seraiah/Sariah as a woman’s name exclusively in the Book of Mormon and at Elephantine is made even more interesting since both communities have their roots in northern Israel, ca. the eighth–seventh centuries BCE.
In 1993,Jeffrey R. Chadwick noted the appearance of the Hebrew name ŚRYH (שריה), typically rendered Seraiah in English,as a woman’s name on an Aramaic papyrus from Elephantine and dated to the fifth century BCE. As also pointed out by Chadwick,Nahman Avigad has argued that the Hebrew name ŚRYH(W) should be rendered as Saryah(u), rather than the usual Serayah(u) — which would make the English spelling Sariah instead of Seraiah.
Thus, according to Chadwick, the attestation of ŚRYH as a Hebrew female name at Elephantine provides strong supporting evidence for the appearance of a Hebrew woman named Sariah in the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi,headnote;2:5; 5:1,6;8:14).
Paul Y. Hoskisson,however, urged caution about this evidence since the papyrus in question (Cowley-22) has a lacuna requiring restoration of both the final hē (ה) in ŚRYH and the bet- resh (בר) of the Aramaic word brt (ברת), “daughter,”which is the key indication that the individual in question is a woman.
Thus,Hoskisson cautioned,“restorations cannot provide absolute proof but rather at best a suggestion.” He considered it a good sign that “other scholars accept the possible existence of this feminine name in relative temporal proximity to the beginnings of the Book of Mormon,” but Hoskisson ultimately felt “a clear-cut example of the name for a female would be more helpful.”
Chadwick argued,however, that “the comparative context of the papyrus leaves little doubt that the reconstruction is accurate,” and it is really “the extant final t” of brt that “assures us that the person was a daughter, not a son.”
In the most recently published translation and transcription of this papyrus, Bezalel Porten and Ada Yardeni would seem to agree. In their hand-drawing of the Cowley-22 papyrus (see Figure 1), they represented the restoration of the final hē (ה) in ŚRYH and the bet-resh (בר) of brt as being “nearly certain.”
The “hollow strokes” used to represent the restored portions indicate that the restorations are considered “nearly certain.”
Nonetheless,new evidence that completely satisfies Hoskisson’s call for a more “clear-cut” example has been found. Porten and Yardeni document ŚRYH as a Hebrew feminine name not once, but twice among the Aramaic documents at Elephantine.
A list of names on an ostracon found there, dated to the second half of the fifth century BCE, includes śryh brt […] ([…]שריה ברת), “Seraiah daughter of […].” The name of Seraiah’s (or Sariah’s) parent is broken off,but both “Seraiah” (śryh) and “daughter” (brt) are attested in full, thus providing an undeniable example of ŚRYH as a female name.
This would seem to meet Hoskisson’s demands for more “clear cut” evidence. Furthermore,this clear attestation of ŚRYH as a female name at Elephantine provides reassuring evidence that Cowley-22, which comes from the same period, is indeed restored correctly as “Seraiah,daughter of Hosea.”
In light of Lehi’s ancestors coming from northern Israel (1 Nephi 5:14, 16), ca. 720 bce, it is also interesting to note that,according to Karel van der Toorn,the Jewish community at Elephantine ultimately has its roots in northern Israel,ca. 700 bce.
After surveying the evidence from deity names in the Aramaic texts,van der Toorn concludes, “the entire picture of the religious life at Elephantine and Syene strongly suggest that the historical core of the communities came from Northern Israel.”
He further notes “the emigrants from Northern Israel would have entered Egypt by way of Judah” and suspects “some of them stayed in Judah for a significant length of time” before migrating to Egypt sometime in the seventh century bce.
Therefore, the founders of the Elephantine community were likely contemporaries of Lehi or his parents and were similarly Israelites of northern stock who initially settled in Judah.
These details add to the significance of these two references to women named ŚRYH (Seraiah/Sariah) at Elephantine. In both the Hebrew Bible and the epigraphic evidence from Judah, ŚRYH(W) is only attested as a male’s name.
While this could simply be due to the limitations of our available data set,17 it is also possible the attestation of ŚRYH as a woman’s name both in the Book of Mormon and at Elephantine and only in these sources, reflects a specifically northern Israelite practice.
In any case,with the certain reference to a woman named ŚRYH on an ostracon from Elephantine, there can no longer be any doubt that Seraiah/Sariah was a Hebrew woman’s name in the mid-first millennium bce.
The following transcriptions and translations are adapted from Bezalel Porten and Ada Yardeni,Textbook of Aramaic Documents from Ancient Egypt, 4 vols. (Jerusalem:Hebrew University,1986–1999), 3:226–228; 4:211.
Temple Funds Contributors List
Text:Cowley-22 (C3.15), col. 1, lines 1–4
Date:ca. 419/400 BC
Transcription
זנה שמהת חילא יהודיא זי יהב כסף ליהו IIIII לפמנחתף שנת III ב
[II] אלהא לגבר לגבר כסף ש
II משל]מ[ת ברת גמר]י[ה בר מחסיה כסף ש
II זכור ]בר אוש[ע בר זכור כסף ש
II שרי]ה בר[ת הושע בר חרמן כסף ש
Translation
On the 3rd of Phamenoth, year 5. This is (= these are) the names of the Jewish garrison who gave silver to YHW the God each person silver, [2] sh(ekels):
Meshull[em]eth daughter of Gemar[ia]h son of Maḥseiah: silver, 2 sh.
Zaccur [son of Ose]a son of Zaccur: silver, 2 sh.
Serai[ah daught]er of Hosea son of Ḥarman: silver, 2 sh.
Storeroom Names List
Text: Elephantine Storeroom 2293 (D9.14), concave lines 1–5
Date: ca. 450–400 BC
Transcription
[…]ה
[… ח]יסל
[…]אבערש
[… ת]יהוטל בר
[…]שריה ברת
Translation
H[…]
Isla[ḥ …]
Abioresh[…]
Jehotal daugh[ter of…]
Seraiah daughter of[ …]
Neal Rappleye
April 5,2019
Interpreter:A Journal of Mormon Scripture
Abstract:Jeffrey R. Chadwick has previously called attention to the name ŚRYH (Seraiah/Sariah) as a Hebrew woman’s name in the Jewish community at Elephantine. Paul Y. Hoskisson, however,felt this evidence was not definitive because part of the text was missing and had to be restored. Now a more recently published ostracon from Elephantine,which contains a sure attestation of the name ŚRYH as a woman’s name without the need of restoration,satisfies Hoskisson’s call for more definitive evidence and makes it more likely that the name is correctly restored on the papyrus first noticed by Chadwick. The appearance of the name Seraiah/Sariah as a woman’s name exclusively in the Book of Mormon and at Elephantine is made even more interesting since both communities have their roots in northern Israel, ca. the eighth–seventh centuries BCE.
In 1993,Jeffrey R. Chadwick noted the appearance of the Hebrew name ŚRYH (שריה), typically rendered Seraiah in English,as a woman’s name on an Aramaic papyrus from Elephantine and dated to the fifth century BCE. As also pointed out by Chadwick,Nahman Avigad has argued that the Hebrew name ŚRYH(W) should be rendered as Saryah(u), rather than the usual Serayah(u) — which would make the English spelling Sariah instead of Seraiah.
Thus, according to Chadwick, the attestation of ŚRYH as a Hebrew female name at Elephantine provides strong supporting evidence for the appearance of a Hebrew woman named Sariah in the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi,headnote;2:5; 5:1,6;8:14).
Paul Y. Hoskisson,however, urged caution about this evidence since the papyrus in question (Cowley-22) has a lacuna requiring restoration of both the final hē (ה) in ŚRYH and the bet- resh (בר) of the Aramaic word brt (ברת), “daughter,”which is the key indication that the individual in question is a woman.
Thus,Hoskisson cautioned,“restorations cannot provide absolute proof but rather at best a suggestion.” He considered it a good sign that “other scholars accept the possible existence of this feminine name in relative temporal proximity to the beginnings of the Book of Mormon,” but Hoskisson ultimately felt “a clear-cut example of the name for a female would be more helpful.”
Chadwick argued,however, that “the comparative context of the papyrus leaves little doubt that the reconstruction is accurate,” and it is really “the extant final t” of brt that “assures us that the person was a daughter, not a son.”
In the most recently published translation and transcription of this papyrus, Bezalel Porten and Ada Yardeni would seem to agree. In their hand-drawing of the Cowley-22 papyrus (see Figure 1), they represented the restoration of the final hē (ה) in ŚRYH and the bet-resh (בר) of brt as being “nearly certain.”
The “hollow strokes” used to represent the restored portions indicate that the restorations are considered “nearly certain.”
Nonetheless,new evidence that completely satisfies Hoskisson’s call for a more “clear-cut” example has been found. Porten and Yardeni document ŚRYH as a Hebrew feminine name not once, but twice among the Aramaic documents at Elephantine.
A list of names on an ostracon found there, dated to the second half of the fifth century BCE, includes śryh brt […] ([…]שריה ברת), “Seraiah daughter of […].” The name of Seraiah’s (or Sariah’s) parent is broken off,but both “Seraiah” (śryh) and “daughter” (brt) are attested in full, thus providing an undeniable example of ŚRYH as a female name.
This would seem to meet Hoskisson’s demands for more “clear cut” evidence. Furthermore,this clear attestation of ŚRYH as a female name at Elephantine provides reassuring evidence that Cowley-22, which comes from the same period, is indeed restored correctly as “Seraiah,daughter of Hosea.”
In light of Lehi’s ancestors coming from northern Israel (1 Nephi 5:14, 16), ca. 720 bce, it is also interesting to note that,according to Karel van der Toorn,the Jewish community at Elephantine ultimately has its roots in northern Israel,ca. 700 bce.
After surveying the evidence from deity names in the Aramaic texts,van der Toorn concludes, “the entire picture of the religious life at Elephantine and Syene strongly suggest that the historical core of the communities came from Northern Israel.”
He further notes “the emigrants from Northern Israel would have entered Egypt by way of Judah” and suspects “some of them stayed in Judah for a significant length of time” before migrating to Egypt sometime in the seventh century bce.
Therefore, the founders of the Elephantine community were likely contemporaries of Lehi or his parents and were similarly Israelites of northern stock who initially settled in Judah.
These details add to the significance of these two references to women named ŚRYH (Seraiah/Sariah) at Elephantine. In both the Hebrew Bible and the epigraphic evidence from Judah, ŚRYH(W) is only attested as a male’s name.
While this could simply be due to the limitations of our available data set,17 it is also possible the attestation of ŚRYH as a woman’s name both in the Book of Mormon and at Elephantine and only in these sources, reflects a specifically northern Israelite practice.
In any case,with the certain reference to a woman named ŚRYH on an ostracon from Elephantine, there can no longer be any doubt that Seraiah/Sariah was a Hebrew woman’s name in the mid-first millennium bce.
The following transcriptions and translations are adapted from Bezalel Porten and Ada Yardeni,Textbook of Aramaic Documents from Ancient Egypt, 4 vols. (Jerusalem:Hebrew University,1986–1999), 3:226–228; 4:211.
Temple Funds Contributors List
Text:Cowley-22 (C3.15), col. 1, lines 1–4
Date:ca. 419/400 BC
Transcription
זנה שמהת חילא יהודיא זי יהב כסף ליהו IIIII לפמנחתף שנת III ב
[II] אלהא לגבר לגבר כסף ש
II משל]מ[ת ברת גמר]י[ה בר מחסיה כסף ש
II זכור ]בר אוש[ע בר זכור כסף ש
II שרי]ה בר[ת הושע בר חרמן כסף ש
Translation
On the 3rd of Phamenoth, year 5. This is (= these are) the names of the Jewish garrison who gave silver to YHW the God each person silver, [2] sh(ekels):
Meshull[em]eth daughter of Gemar[ia]h son of Maḥseiah: silver, 2 sh.
Zaccur [son of Ose]a son of Zaccur: silver, 2 sh.
Serai[ah daught]er of Hosea son of Ḥarman: silver, 2 sh.
Storeroom Names List
Text: Elephantine Storeroom 2293 (D9.14), concave lines 1–5
Date: ca. 450–400 BC
Transcription
[…]ה
[… ח]יסל
[…]אבערש
[… ת]יהוטל בר
[…]שריה ברת
Translation
H[…]
Isla[ḥ …]
Abioresh[…]
Jehotal daugh[ter of…]
Seraiah daughter of[ …]
Your geography is wrong. From Wikipedia:
Geography
Elephantine is 1,200 metres (3,900 ft) from north to south, and is 400 metres (1,300 ft) across at its widest point. The layout of this and other nearby islands in Aswan can be seen from west bank hillsides along the Nile. The island is located just downstream of the First Cataract, at the southern border of Upper Egypt with Lower Nubia. This region above is referred to as Upper Egypt because it is further up the Nile.
The island may have received its name after its shape, which in aerial views is similar to that of an elephant tusk, or from the rounded rocks along the banks resembling elephants....
Because the Nile flows from south to north, (opposite the way that the Mississippi flows) cities such as Cairo and Alexandria are located in the lower reaches of the Nile (downstream). It is not unusual to confuse the terms, and to make "upper" to mean "closer to the Mediterranean sea" when it is further away.
What is important is to understand that when traveling on the Nile and going up stream, you are traveling south. The source you quote made that STUPID MISTAKE and totally discredits himself because Northern Israel borders on LEBANON.
In failing to do a fact check, you are an accomplice to the error of the person from whom you copied, and there is no nice way to say it, but doing that, also discredits your post.
I'll write no more, and let the readers imagine the appropriate conclusions to apply from your posts as I post the truth, but you continue to post easilly dismissed balderdash.
Bonnie
Super Member
Only one problem with this supposed "evidence"--the name "Seraiah" appears a number of times in the OT. One was David's Scribe; another was a high priest; a quiet prince in Jeremiah; and a whole host of "sons" of various men.
So, Smith just lifted the name from the OT. The names are there for everyone to see, if they read the OT.
No evidence whatsoever.
LOCKYER'S ALL THE MEN OF THE BIBLE – SERAIAH
Seraiah
Seraiah [Sĕra ī'ah]—jehovah is prince, the lord is my prince, or soldier of the lord.
One of king David’s scribes (2 Sam. 8:17; see 1 Chron. 18:16 for Shavsha).
The son of Azariah and chief priest at Jerusalem when Nebuchadnezzar took it. This Seraiah, along with other renowned captives, was put to death at Riblah (2 Kings 25:18; 1 Chron. 6:14; Ezra 7:1; Jer. 52:24).
A son of Tanhumeth, from Netophah, whom Gedaliah advised to submit to the Chaldeans. He was one of “the captains of the forces” (2 Kings 25:23; Jer. 40:8).
The second son of Kenez, brother of Othniel and father of Joab (1 Chron. 4:13, 14).
A prince of Simeon, son of Asiel and grandfather of Jehu, who drove furiously (1 Chron. 4:35).
One of the twelve leaders, a priest who returned from exile with Zerubbabel (Ezra 2:2; Neh. 10:2; 12:1, 12).
A priest, son of Hilkiah, dwelling in Jerusalem after the exile and called “ruler of the house of God” (Neh. 11:11; 12:1).
A chief man, son of Aziel, and sent by Jehoiakim to apprehend Jeremiah and Baruch (Jer. 36:26).
A son of Neriah and brother of Baruch, a prince of Judah who went to Babylon with Zedekiah (Jer. 51:59, 61). For “quiet prince” the RV has “chief chamberlain.”
© 1988 Zondervan. All Rights Reserved
Magdalena
Well-known member
What is your point?
SARIAH appears to be the feminine form of the biblical name Seraiah,attested nineteen times in reference to nine individuals.
onoma.lib.byu.edu
SARIAH - Book of Mormon Onomasticon
Last edited:
Magdalena
Well-known member
Again... what is your point?SARIAH - Book of Mormon Onomasticon
The name Seraiah is a boy's name meaning "Yahweh is ruler".
Seraiah - Baby Name Meaning, Origin, and Popularity | Nameberry
Seraiah is a boy's name meaning "Yahweh is ruler".
nameberry.com
Magdalena
Well-known member
Ah. Dialogue. Now we’re making some progress. So you’re saying Seraiah is not the same as SRYH?
Bonnie
Super Member
So? Like Smith couldn't have tweaked the name slightly? And you quoted this:SARIAH appears to be the feminine form of the biblical name Seraiah,attested nineteen times in reference to nine individuals.
SARIAH - Book of Mormon Onomasticon
So? But you quoted this:
See the bolded name?
2. An Arabian altar at a crossroad called Nahom
Okay, we admit, this item is on most lists of Book of Mormon evidences—undoubtedly because it’s so spot-on. Not one, but three ancient altars inscribed with the same three Semitic consonants of the place-name, Nahom, as mentioned in 1 Nephi 16:34. Never mind the lack of vowels in the Hebrew alphabet that might alter the pronunciation: “Ni-ham,” “Nu-heem,” “Nehum”. The coincidence remains staggering. Not only are these altars found in the right place, they date to the right time. If that’s not enough, Nahom itself appears associated with the Hebrew word for “mourning”, which is precisely why the Lehites were there. Nahom was one of the largest burial areas in ancient Southwestern Arabia,6 and the travelers were there to mourn the death of their beloved friend, Ishmael.
Joseph Smith simply could not have known this in 1830. Some of the theories proposed to explain away this coincidence have lower odds than Joseph just making a wild and lucky guess.
3. Cement
For one particular physical evidence, look no further than a plethora of archaeological sites from many different centuries, but particularly centuries on either side of the meridian of time. That evidence? Cement.
During the 1st century B.C., the Nephites faced a tricky challenge. The worst fears of the Lorax had come true: The land had been scavenged of timber. This forced them to rely upon cement construction for housing and other buildings, becoming, or so we’re told, quite the experts (Helaman 3:7).
No one in Joseph Smith’s time could have pointed to any Native American cement wall or fountain. B. H. Roberts wrote a letter in 1932 citing a few sources for cement work that pre-dated the Book of Mormon’s publication, but this information was highly obscure until the middle of the 20th century. Employing the word “cement” was cited as anachronistic proof of the Book of Mormon’s fabrication.7
Once again, patience transformed this into a non-issue. Not only have cement structures been identified throughout Mesoamerica, but as Dr. John Sorenson noted, “The first-century-BC appearance of cement in the Book of Mormon agrees strikingly with the archaeology of central Mexico.”8 Dr. John W. Welch pointed out that no archeologist in 1829 could have known how accurately the dating of this technological adaptation correlated with what was happening on the ground.9
4. The seal of Mulek
First, realize that evidences of a sacred text are extraordinary things. Artifacts that support the Old Testament, for example, are rare and highly treasured by people of faith in Israel and throughout the world.
Now consider a small clay emblem for stamping documents excavated in Jerusalem in the 1980s with the name Malkiyahu ben hamelek, or Malkiyahu son of the king. This seal dates conveniently to the late 7th or early 6th centuries B.C.
Book of Mormon readers are well aware of a tribal group who claimed to descend from a son of King Zedekiah named Mulek. (Helaman 6:10; 8:21) Trouble is, history wasn’t aware of any “Prince Mulek”, let alone any children of King Zedekiah who would have survived the Babylonian massacre. And one who found allies and migrated to the New World? That’s what makes this seal so interesting. Mulek is easily an hypocoristic, or shortened, form of Malkiyahu, exactly as today we’d shorten Alexander to Alex or Nathaniel to Nate. Mulek may have also been mentioned in Jeremiah 38:6.10 This artifact is so small it could fit on your fingernail, yet its implications could be enormous.
5. Barley in the Americas
Our final physical evidence is also small—as tiny as a single grain. In fact, it is a grain. In Mosiah 7:22 we read that the Nephites cultivated barley, even utilizing it for monetary purposes: “And behold, we at this time do pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites, to the amount of one half of our corn, and our barley, and even all our grain of every kind,”
Barley comes up in the Book of Mormon four different times (Mosiah 7:22; 9:9; Alma 11:7, 15). Yet prior to A.D. 1492, this grain wasn’t known to have existed, let alone cultivated, in this hemisphere. Thus, more fodder for Book of Mormon criticism and ridicule.
It wasn’t until 1983 that archeologists acknowledged the existence and cultivation of a type of New World barley that dated to as early as 800 B.C.11