Syriac Peshitta, KJVO "pure" line, and the Comma

You are mixing up two conversations.

One with Shoonra specifically about the Lamsa Peshitta text, where Rick Norris on post 831 got confused and put in a post about the Peshitta in general, which I corrected in 833.

Two - My discussion pointing out problems in two lists you created,
a) one with mss. from multiple languages where you deliberately omitted early Latin mss.
b) one with simply Syriac manuscripts, where you are unsure on most of them whether they have 1 John 5 7-8 section.

The url related to Two.

Try to follow.
Better than silly, false accusations.

What? That there's no early Syriac NT manuscripts (before the 15th century) that have the Comma in them?
 
What? That there's no early Syriac NT manuscripts (before the 15th century) that have the Comma in them?

You made a total of early manuscripts, but you simply did not know if most of the Syriac manuscripts had the section.
So your total was false.

And it was false by deliberately excluding important Latin mss.
 
Can you give some variants other than the heavenly witnesses and Acts 8:37 (which vary in Lamsa editions)?

I would love to see Peshitta variants with text he omits.
Very sorry. I do not presently have a copy of Lamsa so I cannot provide examples of his anomalies. I checked them using books in a seminary library a long time ago.
 
Very sorry. I do not presently have a copy of Lamsa so I cannot provide examples of his anomalies. I checked them using books in a seminary library a long time ago.

And I remain skeptical of your claims, however I did find a verse where Lamsa goes bonkers, on Acts 20:28 he has "to feed the church of Christ" and afaik that is not in other Peshitta editions.
 
Go back and repost my posts with the list of Syriac NT manuscripts here (in there entirety).
The issue is your total of about 20 mss. It needed a note that many were unsure.
The other issue is Latin omissions.

Different issues than Shoonra and the Peshitta.
Where you mixed up the threads.
 
Last edited:
You made a total of early manuscripts, but you simply did not know if most of the Syriac manuscripts had the section.
So your total was false.

And it was false by deliberately excluding important Latin mss.

Go back, andddd repost my posts with the list of Syriac NT manuscripts here (in there entirety).
 
It's simple.
Show what my posts really said, compared to your representation.
Your posts have lots of “Comma Johanneum?” and you say you don’t know if the section is in the ms.,on many mss.
Yet your totals ignore that data, and are wrong on the Latin.

Why did you mix up your thread with Shoonra’s on the Peshitta?
 
Last edited:
Unfortunately in this case at least for that Syriac manuscripts available on the internet(in someone I really looked for where 1 Jn 5, 7 was (Syriac numbering: 1 Jn 5,8), only 2 or so I have not yet verified them! I do not find anyone who differs from ''the Spirit is Truth. And there are three that testify the Spirit and the water and the blood... ''. This is a list of those found on the internet, not all of them:
 
Last edited:
Unfortunately in this case at least for that Syriac manuscripts available on the internet(in someone I really looked for where 1 Jn 5, 7 was (Syriac numbering: 1 Jn 5,8), only 2 or so I have not yet verified them! I do not find anyone who differs from ''the Spirit is Truth. And there are three that testify the Spirit and the water and the blood... ''. This is a list of those found on the internet, not all of them:

Well done. 👍
 
So, what simpler explanation do you have for why the Comma is not in any of the early Syriac New Testament manuscripts, other than it was not there in the first place?

It was not in the Greek mss. from which the Peshitta was copied.

Thomas Burgess (1756-1837)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Burgess_(bishop)

makes the case that the Syriac shows us evidence that its original Greek ms. had lost the heavenly witnesses.

A Letter to the Reverend Thomas Beynon, Archdeacon of Cardigan In Reply to a Vindication of the Literary Character of Professor Porson by Crito Cantabrigiensis; And in Further Proof of the Authenticity of 1 John, V. 7 (1829)
Thomas Burgess
https://books.google.com/books?id=w-EtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR56

And a bit more on p. 54 and 60
https://books.google.com/books?id=w-EtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR54
https://books.google.com/books?id=w-EtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR60

In fact, the whole section runs from p, 53 to p. 72.
On the omission of the seventh Verse in the Oriental Versions.

================================

Covered also on KJVToday (I make a couple of minor bibliographic corrections that I passed on to KJVToday)

KJVToday
https://www.kjvtoday.net/home/the-father-the-word-and-the-holy-ghost-in-1-john-57

Like the Vulgate, the Syriac Peshitta has a trace of the Comma
In a similar vein to those Vulgate manuscripts without the Comma, early manuscripts of the Syriac Peshitta do not have the Comma but nonetheless retain a trace of the Comma in verse 8 (or verse 7 depending on the versification), which begins with "ܘܐܝܬܝܗܘ" (Thomas Burgess, A Letter to the Reverend Thomas Beynon, Archdeacon of Cardigan In Reply to a Vindication of the Literary Character of Professor Porson by Crito Cantabrigiensis; And in Further Proof of the Authenticity of 1 John, V. 7, London: Brodie and Dowding, 1829, p. LVI):

ܘܐܝܬܝܗܘܢ ܬܠܬܐ ܤܗܕܝܢ ܪܘܚܐ ܘܡܝܐ ܘܕܡܐ ܘܬܠܬܝܗܘܢ ܒܚܕ ܐܢܘܢ

"And there are three that testify, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three are in one." (J. W. Etheridge)

"And there are three to bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three are one." (George M. Lamsa)

"And there are three witnesses, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are in union." (James Murdock)

The phrase "And there are..." at 1 John 5 appears only in Bibles with the Comma. This is because the clause immediately following verse 6 is introduced with "For there are..." (whether with or without the Comma). The phrase "And there are...." follows the Comma only if the Comma exists. In Bibles without the Comma the only phrase should be "For there are....":

"οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες, το πνευμα και το υδωρ και το αιμα, και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν." (Nestle-Aland 27)

"For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree." (ESV)

There is no reason why the Syriac should translate the Greek causal conjunction "οτι" as the copulative Waw (ܘ) conjunction. The Syriac translates "οτι" as "because" in just the previous verse and also at 1 John 5:4. The phrase "οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες" obviously introduces a "cause" or "reason" for the antecedent phrase. The Syriac appears to be translated from a Greek manuscript which contained "και τρεις εισιν", which is a vestige of the Comma. Although this manuscript apparently did not contain the Comma and the mention of "in earth", it nonetheless contained a trace of the Comma. The oldest Syriac manuscript which contains 1 John is from the 5th century (British Library, Add. 14470).

======================
 
Last edited:

Just in case anyone thinks this has a trace of the Comma with the words "and the three are in Jesus".

This manuscript was made A.D. 1890

https://archive.org/details/Macombe...YU Microfilms)/page/n43/mode/1up?view=theater

It's not an early manuscript, in fact the KJV1611 in English is older - much older (to give perspective).
 
Saint Mark's Monastery, Jerusalem MS 36 (circa. 12th century A.D./C.E.)

Saint Mark's Monastery, Jerusalem MS 31 (circa. 16th century A.D./C.E.)

Saint Mark's Monastery, Jerusalem MS 50 (circa. 19th century A.D./C.E.)
 

This one here, though, is dated 5th-6th century A.D./C.E. and is truly significant.

Thank you very much Puxanto!

St. Catherine's Monastery, Mount Sinai, Syriac Manuscripts No. 5 (circa. 5th-6th century C.E.)
Digital Image 158 of 183 (right hand page in the image)​
Folio 154v​
Lines 13-14 = 1 John 5:6​
Lines 15-17 = 1 John 5:7-8​
Oh, and there's no Comma Johanneum (Parenthetical Text).

Compare the manuscript text above with the translation and Syriac (or Aramaic) text at this link below:

https://theholyaramaicscriptures.weebly.com/1-joh-5.html
 
Last edited:
St. Catherine's Monastery, Mount Sinai, Syriac Manuscripts No. 5 (circa. 5th-6th century C.E.) = no Comma!
Vatican Library Digital, Vat. sir. 266 (circa. 7th century A.D./C.E.) = no Comma!
BNF, Syr. 361 (circa. 8th-9th century A.D./C.E.) = no Comma!
Vatican Library Digital, Vat. sir. 510 (circa. 11th century A.D./C.E.) = no Comma!
Vatican Library Digital, Vat. sir. 470 (circa. 11th century A.D./C.E.) = no Comma!
Saint Mark's Monastery, Jerusalem MS 36 (circa. 12th century A.D./C.E.) = no Comma!
Vatican Library Digital, Vat. sir. 471 (circa. 13th century A.D./C.E.) = no Comma!
Saint Mark's Monastery, Jerusalem MS 31 (circa. 16th century A.D./C.E.) = no Comma!
Saint Mark's Monastery, Jerusalem MS 50 (circa. 19th century A.D./C.E.) = no Comma (but has variant "in Jesus")!

"Grazie" Puxanto.
 
Back
Top