Taketh away the sin of the Church !

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TomFL

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
Like I said you have not proved the op not to be true. Jn 1:29 is a world that has no sin charged to it.
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Actually it is the world which has its sins being taken up in atonement

Atonement being a provisionary measure effective for those who accompany it with faith

And if you look at the industry standard lexicon BAGD

5. the world as mankind (Sib. Or. 1, 189)—a. gener. οὐαί τῷ κ. ἀπὸ τῶν σκανδάλων woe to mankind because of vexations Mt 18:7; τὸ φῶς τοῦ κ. the light for mankind 5:14; cf. J 8:12; 9:5. ὁ σωτὴρ τοῦ κ. 4:42; 1J 4:14 (this designation is found in the inscrs., esp. oft. of Hadrian [WWeber, Untersuchungen z. Geschichte des Kaisers Hadrianus ’07, 225; 226; 229]).—J 1:29; 3:17b;

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

You will see it includes John 1:29 along with John 3:17b under a meaning of mankind
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
Actually it is the world which has its sins being taken up in atonement

Atonement being a provisionary measure effective for those who accompany it with faith

And if you look at the industry standard lexicon BAGD

5. the world as mankind (Sib. Or. 1, 189)—a. gener. οὐαί τῷ κ. ἀπὸ τῶν σκανδάλων woe to mankind because of vexations Mt 18:7; τὸ φῶς τοῦ κ. the light for mankind 5:14; cf. J 8:12; 9:5. ὁ σωτὴρ τοῦ κ. 4:42; 1J 4:14 (this designation is found in the inscrs., esp. oft. of Hadrian [WWeber, Untersuchungen z. Geschichte des Kaisers Hadrianus ’07, 225; 226; 229]).—J 1:29; 3:17b;

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

You will see it includes John 1:29 along with John 3:17b under a meaning of mankind
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No only some people have their sins taken away, the World of the Sheep. Others shall die in their sins.
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
No only some people have their sins taken away, the World of the Sheep. Others shall die in their sins.
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All people have a sacrifice offered for their sins.

If they accompany atonement with faith their sins are purged

See two goat atonement in Leviticus 16

One goat is sacrificed and that is called making atonement

The other goat carries away sin if the sacrifice is accepted of God

sins are transfered to the goat who carries them away


The other
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
Christ giving Himself for the Church, His Own World, it taketh away their sin so, that by His One offering He has perfected her forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
That scripture refers to the Body of Christ, all Christs Sheep universally.
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Here is how John uses the term the "whole world"

1 John 5:19 —ESV
“¶ We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.”
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
That scripture refers to the Body of Christ, all Christs Sheep universally.
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BTW the world hates the church

John 7:7 —ESV
“The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.”
John 15:18 —ESV
“¶ “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.”
John 15:19 —ESV
“If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.”
John 17:14 —ESV
“I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.”
1 John 3:13 —ESV
“Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you.”

The world rejoices at the sorrows of the Church

John 16:20 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy.”

The Church is not of the world

John 17:16 —ESV
“They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.”

The world cannot receive the Spirit

John 14:17 —ESV
“even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.”

Love of the world indicates the love of God is not in you

1 John 2:15 —ESV
“¶ Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”

The world does not know the church or God

1 John 3:1 —ESV
“¶ See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.”
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
BTW the world hates the church

John 7:7 —ESV
“The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.”
John 15:18 —ESV
“¶ “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.”
John 15:19 —ESV
“If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.”
John 17:14 —ESV
“I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.”
1 John 3:13 —ESV
“Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you.”

The world rejoices at the sorrows of the Church

John 16:20 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy.”

The Church is not of the world

John 17:16 —ESV
“They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.”

The world cannot receive the Spirit

John 14:17 —ESV
“even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.”

Love of the world indicates the love of God is not in you

1 John 2:15 —ESV
“¶ Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”

The world does not know the church or God

1 John 3:1 —ESV
“¶ See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.”
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I know the world hates the church, that was a pointless comment.
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
Thats a different world
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Its the only other time John uses the term whole world

Neither the term world or whole world refers to the church

the world hates the church

John 7:7 —ESV
“The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.”
John 15:18 —ESV
“¶ “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.”
John 15:19 —ESV
“If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.”
John 17:14 —ESV
“I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.”
1 John 3:13 —ESV
“Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you.”

The world rejoices at the sorrows of the Church

John 16:20 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy.”

The Church is not of the world

John 17:16 —ESV
“They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.”

The world cannot receive the Spirit

John 14:17 —ESV
“even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.”

Love of the world indicates the love of God is not in you

1 John 2:15 —ESV
“¶ Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”

The world does not know the church or God

1 John 3:1 —ESV
“¶ See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.”
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
Its the only other time John uses the term whole world

Neither the term world or whole world refers to the church

the world hates the church

John 7:7 —ESV
“The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.”
John 15:18 —ESV
“¶ “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.”
John 15:19 —ESV
“If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.”
John 17:14 —ESV
“I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.”
1 John 3:13 —ESV
“Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you.”

The world rejoices at the sorrows of the Church

John 16:20 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy.”

The Church is not of the world

John 17:16 —ESV
“They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.”

The world cannot receive the Spirit

John 14:17 —ESV
“even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.”

Love of the world indicates the love of God is not in you

1 John 2:15 —ESV
“¶ Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”

The world does not know the church or God

1 John 3:1 —ESV
“¶ See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.”
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He uses the whole world twice once in 1 Jn 2:2 and once in 1 Jn 5:19

Yet theyre seperate whole worlds, One is the Sheep the other is the goats
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
He uses the whole world twice once in 1 Jn 2:2 and once in 1 Jn 5:19

Yet theyre seperate whole worlds, One is the Sheep the other is the goats
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What you have is special pleading

Multiple verses were produced showing John's use of the term world carries with it a negative connotation

of being opposed to God and his people

It is only in theologically critical texts for your theology you want to change the meaning

That is theologically driven interpretation and faulty methodology
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
What you have is special pleading

Multiple verses were produced showing John's use of the term world carries with it a negative connotation

of being opposed to God and his people

It is only in theologically critical texts for your theology you want to change the meaning

That is theologically driven interpretation and faulty methodology
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You may believe 1 Jn 2:2 has negative connotation but it doesnt. That whole World has had its sins propitiated and do not lie in the wicked one !
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
You may believe 1 Jn 2:2 has negative connotation but it doesnt. That whole World has had its sins propitiated and do not lie in the wicked one !
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Again you offer special pleading

and change meaning only at theologically critical verses for your theology
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
Again you offer special pleading

and change meaning only at theologically critical verses for your theology
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That whole world in 1 Jn 2:2 has Jesus Christ the righteous as its advocate 1 Jn 2:1-2

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
That whole world in 1 Jn 2:2 has Jesus Christ the righteous as its advocate 1 Jn 2:1-2

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
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Yes Christ is the propitiation for the sin of all sinners

1 John 2:2 —KJV
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

The pronoun "our" refers to believers and the world to those who do not believe

It fits in quite nicely with John's use throughout his writings
 
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