Taketh away the sin of the Church !

brightfame52

Well-known member
Yes Christ is the propitiation for the sin of all sinners

1 John 2:2 —KJV
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

The pronoun "our" refers to believers and the world to those who do not believe

It fits in quite nicely with John's use throughout his writings
That verse is speaking of the Sheep of Christ among the jews and gentiles, of all time in world history
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That verse is speaking of the Sheep of Christ among the jews and gentiles, of all time in world history
Neither are mentioned in the verse

1 John 2:2 —KJV
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

The pronoun "our" refers to believers and the world to those who do not believe

1 John 1:3–2:2 —KJV
“That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

We are those who walk in the light and have their sins forgiven

The world are those typically referred to by John as those opposed to God
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
That definition is contrived and arbitrary. Here is an interesting quote:

1 John 2:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


In this verse "the world" means what it says, "the world".

Your assertion is an empty one, and it is analogous to a tautology.

You are simply saying, "The word 'world' means 'world'", which doesn't convey any useful information.

It would be like having a dictionary that reads:

Apple - it means 'apple'.
Bat - it means 'bat'.
Book - it means 'book'.
Cat - it means 'cat'.

Not very useful, is it?

No, you simply say, "world means world", without giving an actual definition, so you can ASSUME any meaning you want for the term.

John makes a distinction between "our sins" (meaning the church's), and the rest of the "world,"

Where does JOHN (not you) say that "our sins" refers to "the church's"?

That is nothing but an arbitrary and self-serving ASSUMPTION on your part so that you can claim (without basis) that "the world" means "everyone external to the church".

and applies the Atonement to all. It doesn't leave any room for ambiguity or misunderstanding.

Actually, it does.
"All" is almost NEVER used universally.
There is always a particular group that it refers to.

"All" Americans.
"All" bakers.
"All" children.
"All" students in this class.
"All" Dr. Brown's patients.
etc.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Your assertion is an empty one, and it is analogous to a tautology.

You are simply saying, "The word 'world' means 'world'", which doesn't convey any useful information.

It would be like having a dictionary that reads:

Apple - it means 'apple'.
Bat - it means 'bat'.
Book - it means 'book'.
Cat - it means 'cat'.

Not very useful, is it?

No, you simply say, "world means world", without giving an actual definition, so you can ASSUME any meaning you want for the term.



Where does JOHN (not you) say that "our sins" refers to "the church's"?

That is nothing but an arbitrary and self-serving ASSUMPTION on your part so that you can claim (without basis) that "the world" means "everyone external to the church".



Actually, it does.
"All" is almost NEVER used universally.
There is always a particular group that it refers to.

"All" Americans.
"All" bakers.
"All" children.
"All" students in this class.
"All" Dr. Brown's patients.
etc.
What you miss is that all includes all of the named category

So all men encompasses all men not some

In any case a critical examination of John's use of the term world minus theologically critical verses shows John uses the term to include they that oppose God



world
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What you miss is that all includes all of the named category

With all due respect, I'm not "missing" anything.
I can see where YOUR interpretation is errant (but won't bother you with it, since you refuse to accept it anyway), and so I reject your false teachings.

So all men encompasses all men not some

Another tautology.
"All men" means "all men".

Now, let's discuss what is meant by "men".
Or not, since you're not interested in any view other than your own.

In any case a critical examination of John's use of the term world minus theologically critical verses shows John uses the term to include they that oppose God

So any view that disagrees with you is by definition, not "a critical examination".
Got it.
Nobody's allowed to disagree with you.
Got it.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
With all due respect, I'm not "missing" anything.
I can see where YOUR interpretation is errant (but won't bother you with it, since you refuse to accept it anyway), and so I reject your false teachings.

So you say but prove nothing

What you miss is that all includes all of the named category

So all men encompasses all men not some

In any case a critical examination of John's use of the term world minus theologically critical verses shows John uses the term to include they that oppose God

thus you offer nothing but your unsupported opinion

while you ignore what a critical examination of John's use of the term world reveals

and thus indulge in special pleading
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So you say but prove nothing

I have no obligation to.
I'm simply sharing with you the fact that YOUR argument has "not been proven".

I have to wonder about your double standard that you think you don't have to prove anything, but I do.

What you miss is that all includes all of the named category

Nope, I'm not "missing" any such thing.
You seem to be unwilling to accept that people DISAGREE with you, without "missing" anything.

So all men encompasses all men not some

The issue is not the meaning of "all".
The issue is the meaning of "men".

That's what YOU keep "missing".
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I have no obligation to.
I'm simply sharing with you the fact that YOUR argument has "not been proven".

I have to wonder about your double standard that you think you don't have to prove anything, but I do.



Nope, I'm not "missing" any such thing.
You seem to be unwilling to accept that people DISAGREE with you, without "missing" anything.



The issue is not the meaning of "all".
The issue is the meaning of "men".

That's what YOU keep "missing".
No you have no legal obligation to prove what you state but you also have no grounds upon which to pronounce error

Offering only the unsupported claims of your theology

and as for your other claim unless you are going to claim men means believers only you have no argument

Do you have any support for such a claim

Personally I do not believe you do
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
Neither are mentioned in the verse

1 John 2:2 —KJV
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

The pronoun "our" refers to believers and the world to those who do not believe

1 John 1:3–2:2 —KJV
“That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

We are those who walk in the light and have their sins forgiven

The world are those typically referred to by John as those opposed to God
That doesnt matter, Christ died for His Sheep Jn 10
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Scripture

John 10:14 —KJV
“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

John 10:4 —KJV
“And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.”

his sheep know and follow him

Unbelievers are not his or God's sheep
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Scripture

John 10:14 —KJV
“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

John 10:4 —KJV
“And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.”

his sheep know and follow him

Unbelievers are not his or God's sheep
Christ died for His Sheep when they were unbelieving sinners. Did He not die for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15 thats common sense
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Christ died for His Sheep when they were unbelieving sinners. Did He not die for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15 thats common sense
Unbelievers who do not know or follow him are not his sheep

John 10:14 —KJV
“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

John 10:4 —KJV
“And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

his sheep know and follow him

Unbelievers are not his or God's sheep
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Unbelievers who do not know or follow him are not his sheep

John 10:14 —KJV
“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

John 10:4 —KJV
“And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

his sheep know and follow him

Unbelievers are not his or God's sheep
Christ died for unbelieving Sheep
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Christ died for unbelieving Sheep
Sheep hear and follow

Unbelievers who do not know or follow him are not his sheep

John 10:14 —KJV
“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

John 10:4 —KJV
“And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

his sheep know and follow him

Unbelievers are not his or God's sheep
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Sheep hear and follow

Unbelievers who do not know or follow him are not his sheep

John 10:14 —KJV
“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

John 10:4 —KJV
“And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

his sheep know and follow him

Unbelievers are not his or God's sheep
Already answered
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Already answered
You mean already evaded just as you promised you would

Unbelievers who do not know or follow him are not his sheep

John 10:14 —KJV
“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

John 10:4 —KJV
“And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

his sheep know and follow him

Unbelievers are not his or God's sheep
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The only sins that have been taken away are the sins of the Sheep/Church.
Unbelievers who do not know or follow him are not his sheep

John 10:14 —KJV
“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

John 10:4 —KJV
“And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

his sheep know and follow him

Unbelievers are not his or God's sheep

so why do you affirm what the bible does not ?

Do you not care you contradict the word of God ?
 
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