Teachings that lead to a God Complex

[Markk]

I have been stressing the fact that the church forces a ”God-complex” on the male membership. It is a clear teaching that they can become a God and make worlds for their spirit children, Today however it is mostly watered down, especially to investigators and the general public… with words like “we can become like Him” with no elaboration or detail of what that means or entails. One has to go back a few generations and more, in order to get to the real teachings.

I’ll start with this…

• Lorenzo Snow (Mormonism's 5th president-prophet): “‘President Brimhall, these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods’” [Improvement Era (June 1919), 658–59, quoted in Presidents of the Church: Student Manual (2004), 90.]

This is not just a random assertion, everything thing he taught here is exactly what they teach today…this was originally taught in 1919, and then quoted in a teaching manual published by the church…this Doctrine, and can be found on LDS.org

So my point is with this being taught to LDS young adults…I certainly believe it is fair for a critic to assert it forces a God Complex to those that believe this. I understand if they believe this, they should openly teach it and defend it, instead of just talking around it publicly and stating it is misunderstood.

I’ll be adding more teaching like this by GA, and manuals, that support LDS becoming Gods and it’s lending to the God Complex.

 

[Markk]

Brigham Young taught, from JoD 3:93

Gods like Himself; when we have been proved in our present capacity, and been faithful with all things He puts into our possession. We are created, we are born for the express purpose of growing up from the low estate of manhood, to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven. That is the truth about it, just as it is. The Lord has organized mankind for the express purpose of increasing in that intelligence and truth, which is with God, until he is capable of creating worlds on worlds, and becoming Gods, even the sons of God. How many will become thus privileged?

No little ”g”but a big “G”…

This lends again to the intensity and pressures put on LDS men, that they can be capable of creating worlds without end, and not only becoming a God, but sons of God or in other words a Messiah.

This coming from the very founder of the Utah Church…delivered from the tabernacle of Temple grounds in Salt Lake City.

 

[Markk]

Spencer W. Kimball

All of that is possible, and you are the men the Lord has chosen to do this work. Now it will take a long while, of course, for us to learn enough to be able to do that, but we're on our way. Every week we learn more about the priesthood. Every week we learn better how to handle it. The time will come when we will not only create with our wives the mortal tabernacles which our earthly children occupy, but we will be able to expand our efforts and extend them and go out into the great eternities. And we will be able to produce great families of spirit children who in turn may return to that planet which you will have organized and will have made habitable. And those children will be permitted to go to those planets or earths, and there they will receive mortal bodies to have their schooling process so that eventually they also can return to their Heavenly Father.All of that is possible, and you are the men the Lord has chosen to do this work. Now it will take a long while, of course, for us to learn enough to be able to do that, but we're on our way. Every week we learn more about the priesthood. Every week we learn better how to handle it. The time will come when we will not only create with our wives the mortal tabernacles which our earthly children occupy, but we will be able to expand our efforts and extend them and go out into the great eternities. And we will be able to produce great families of spirit children who in turn may return to that planet which you will have organized and will have made habitable. And those children will be permitted to go to those planets or earths, and there they will receive mortal bodies to have their schooling process so that eventually they also can return to their Heavenly Father. Teaching of SWK page 53

Again, more pressure or affirmation for the God Complex

 

[brotherofJared]

I have been stressing the fact that the church forces a ”God-complex” on the male membership. It is a clear teaching that they can become a God and make worlds for their spirit children, Today however it is mostly watered down, especially to investigators and the general public… with words like “we can become like Him” with no elaboration or detail of what that means or entails. One has to go back a few generations and more, in order to get to the real teachings.

I think we've been very clear that we can become exactly like him, equal to him. There's nothing hidden in that statement. In fact, it's quite clear.

 

[brotherofJared]

This is not just a random assertion, everything thing he taught here is exactly what they teach today…

I thought your claim was that we don't teach it. The thing is, speculation is not Doctrine. And we have no Doctrine discussing the details about how God did certain things or that he actually did them himself. All of our speculation is connected however to the idea that we will do whatever it is that he is now doing.

And please keep in mind, we don't believe God ever did what you guys believe God did. So the idea is that you might have in your mind about what God is or what he does is not the same as what we believe he did or does.

So my point is with this being taught to LDS young adults…I certainly believe it is fair for a critic to assert it forces a God Complex

Except, I believe, this is demonstratably false. I refer you back to your description of individuals who have God complexes. If you compare that kind of person to members of the church today, you will not see that. We see that kind of behavior amongst our critics.

 

[brotherofJared]

All of that is possible

The very thing that so-called Christians deny. Odd how with their God all things are not possible.

Now it will take a long while, of course, for us to learn enough to be able to do that, but we're on our way.

As I said, I don't see how having knowledge is unobtainable. For some, I guess it can be, but is it because it's not possible or because they are too lazy?

we will be able to expand our efforts and extend them and go out into the great eternities.

This is clearly the promise that God gave to Abraham and his posterity. Again, it appears our critics appear not to believe that God is able to keep his promises.

All of that is possible

Indeed. It appears that we are glass-half-full kind of people. We believe. You all don't.

All of that is possible, and you are the men the Lord has chosen to do this work. Now it will take a long while, of course, for us to learn enough to be able to do that, but we're on our way. Every week we learn more about the priesthood. Every week we learn better how to handle it. The time will come when we will not only create with our wives the mortal tabernacles which our earthly children occupy, but we will be able to expand our efforts and extend them and go out into the great eternities. And we will be able to produce great families of spirit children who in turn may return to that planet which you will have organized and will have made habitable. And those children will be permitted to go to those planets or earths, and there they will receive mortal bodies to have their schooling process so that eventually they also can return to their Heavenly Father.

*snort*. It looks like you're fluffing your argument, repeating the very same thing to make it look like you had more. LOL

Look. I realize that this may be too much for a lot of people. Maybe they don't want it. Maybe they want to be pets and go fetch the paper or slippers from benevolent being. I don't know. But, as I said, no one has been able to explain John 14:12, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do..." How is it possible that we can do the works that Jesus did, much less greater works than those that He did. Any clue? No. None. All our critics have is denial. They may not know what it means, but they sure know what it doesn't mean. It's interesting how the blind know what isn't.

 

[Markk]

I think we've been very clear that we can become exactly like him, equal to him. There's nothing hidden in that statement. In fact, it's quite clear.

Well, good you admit it you will be a God, with the same Power, Knowledge, Glory, and Dominion as God…LDS theology says you will do everything he has done, can you agree to that also? Can you say “I will become A God.”

Also lets concentrate on what you believe, other LDS might not agree with you.

 

[Markk]

I thought your claim was that we don't teach it. The thing is, speculation is not Doctrine. And we have no Doctrine discussing the details about how God did certain things or that he actually did them himself. All of our speculation is connected however to the idea that we will do whatever it is that he is now doing.

My claim is, if I was not clear… is that it is not directly taught…the missionary won’t come to your door and say…”do you want to know how to become a God, and create worlds for your spirit children”…” or you can have multiple wives, and be a God for the eternities, if you follow theses steps…”

Show me in GC where this is clearly taught in simple terms? It is always cryptic and masked so only ”veterans” might understand it. But if I am wrong point me to where it is discussed and taught as it is here.

 

[Markk]

And please keep in mind, we don't believe God ever did what you guys believe God did. So the idea is that you might have in your mind about what God is or what he does is not the same as what we believe he did or does.

Be specific here, what did I write that God did not do? Lets define what God, and by default you if you become a God, did?

 

[Markk]

Except, I believe, this is demonstratably false. I refer you back to your description of individuals who have God complexes. If you compare that kind of person to members of the church today, you will not see that. We see that kind of behavior amongst our critics.

Let me define what I mean by having a God complex, in that they’re a few different definitions…for most LDS that buy into this , it is the hope and grandeur of becoming a God. The very delusion that they can be a God. The by products are many…in which I hope to discuss and explore here.

In my years in the church, I would certainly disagree with that. I know members that are humble and do not buy into it in their hearts, my parents, after years of discussions with me, told me they did not want to be Gods, but to just have a eternal family. I showed them what he teaching demanded and after understanding it, didn’t want it in their hearts. My mother did not want to share here husband and she told me she raised 6 kids and that was enough, she did not want to have kids and raise them for eternity. LOL, she also told me she did not want to be a cow and have to suckle kids for eternity, bless her heart.

But I have known, and know, members that are pompous and have sense of superiority in their belief they will be a God. Which is a by product of a God complex for many.

 

[Markk]

The very thing that so-called Christians deny. Odd how with their God all things are not possible.

As I said, I don't see how having knowledge is unobtainable. For some, I guess it can be, but is it because it's not possible or because they are too lazy?

This is clearly the promise that God gave to Abraham and his posterity. Again, it appears our critics appear not to believe that God is able to keep his promises.

Indeed. It appears that we are glass-half-full kind of people. We believe. You all don't.

*snort*. It looks like you're fluffing your argument, repeating the very same thing to make it look like you had more. LOL

Look. I realize that this may be too much for a lot of people. Maybe they don't want it. Maybe they want to be pets and go fetch the paper or slippers from benevolent being. I don't know. But, as I said, no one has been able to explain John 14:12, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do..." How is it possible that we can do the works that Jesus did, much less greater works than those that He did. Any clue? No. None. All our critics have is denial. They may not know what it means, but they sure know what it doesn't mean. It's interesting how the blind know what isn't.

I did not say any of that, Kimball did. But if you believe it …teach it and say it clearly. You can’t even tell me whether or not you have a TR, which is just another way it is kept on the down low. Do you hold a current TR? Which you must have to make all that possible.

 

[Aaron32]

I have been stressing the fact that the church forces a ”God-complex” on the male membership. It is a clear teaching that they can become a God and make worlds for their spirit children, Today however it is mostly watered down, especially to investigators and the general public… with words like “we can become like Him” with no elaboration or detail of what that means or entails. One has to go back a few generations and more, in order to get to the real teachings.

I’ll start with this…

• Lorenzo Snow (Mormonism's 5th president-prophet): “‘President Brimhall, these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods’” [Improvement Era (June 1919), 658–59, quoted in Presidents of the Church: Student Manual (2004), 90.]

This is not just a random assertion, everything thing he taught here is exactly what they teach today…this was originally taught in 1919, and then quoted in a teaching manual published by the church…this Doctrine, and can be found on LDS.org

So my point is with this being taught to LDS young adults…I certainly believe it is fair for a critic to assert it forces a God Complex to those that believe this. I understand if they believe this, they should openly teach it and defend it, instead of just talking around it publicly and stating it is misunderstood.

I’ll be adding more teaching like this by GA, and manuals, that support LDS becoming Gods and it’s lending to the God Complex.

Interesting that the paragraph previous to this in the manual says: “Only a short time before his death, President Snow visited the Brigham Young University [then Brigham Young Academy], at Provo." in light of the statement made by Wilford Woodruff in Official Declaration 1: "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."

Joseph Smith preaches the Sermon in the Grove on June 16th...dies 11 days later.

Mormonism 101: Frequently Asked Questions (Source)​

The founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Joseph Smith, wrote, “The fundamental principles of our religion are … concerning Jesus Christ that He died was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”

In addition to the above, Latter-day Saints believe unequivocally that:

1. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of our loving Heavenly Father.

2. Christ’s Atonement allows mankind to be saved from their sins and return to live with God and their families forever.

3. Christ’s original Church as described in the New Testament has been restored in modern times.

Do Latter-day Saints believe they can become “gods”?​

Latter-day Saints believe that God wants us to become like Him. But this teaching is often misrepresented by those who caricature the faith. The Latter-day Saint belief is no different than the biblical teaching, which states, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together” (Romans 8:16-17). Through following Christ's teachings, Latter-day Saints believe all people can become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4).

Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?​

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

 

[Markk]

Interesting that the paragraph previous to this in the manual says: “Only a short time before his death, President Snow visited the Brigham Young University [then Brigham Young Academy], at Provo." in light of the statement made by Wilford Woodruff in Official Declaration 1: "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."

Joseph Smith preaches the Sermon in the Grove on June 16th...dies 11 days later.

So what is your point here…that the lord removed him because he taught something wrong? What he wrote and taught about God once being a man, and man can become a God…is taught as a revelation today, on LDS . Org, so again I am not really sure what you are trying to assert here?

 

[Aaron32]

So what is your point here…that the lord removed him because he taught something wrong?

Yep.

What he wrote and taught about God once being a man, and man can become a God…is taught as a revelation today, on LDS . Org, so again I am not really sure what you are trying to assert here?

Barely, if at all.
"Lorenzo Snow, the Church’s fifth President, coined a well-known couplet: “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” Little has been revealed about the first half of this couplet, and consequently little is taught. When asked about this topic, Church President Gordon B. Hinckley told a reporter in 1997, “That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

 

[Markk]

Do Latter-day Saints believe they can become “gods”?​

Latter-day Saints believe that God wants us to become like Him. But this teaching is often misrepresented by those who caricature the faith. The Latter-day Saint belief is no different than the biblical teaching, which states, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together” (Romans 8:16-17). Through following Christ's teachings, Latter-day Saints believe all people can become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4).

Which is to my point, they water it down and down play it…for you, but the other teachings, like chapter 47 of Gospel principles, and chapter 36 of Gospel Fundamentals…feed folks like BoJ and Ralf…who concede they will be Gods.

IF LD believe they can become like ”Him”…and have all the power, glory and dominion that “He” has…then believe me, that is not even remotely close as to what a Christian would believe or how they would translate the Bible…which supports my assertion that the church needs to somehow force this nonsense on our interpretation of scripture.

Christians believe ”through Christ” we can partake of the divine nature…not become just like Him, or even remotely close…not even a smidgen. believers are clothed in His righteousness, forever in His Grace…we wil always be His creation…and never be like Him…that is what we believe.

Partake,does not mean become.

This is good though, in that BoJ admitted he could become a God,yet you water it down…which was my exact point in the OP.

 

[Markk]

Yep.

Barely, if at all.
"Lorenzo Snow, the Church’s fifth President, coined a well-known couplet: “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” Little has been revealed about the first half of this couplet, and consequently little is taught. When asked about this topic, Church President Gordon B. Hinckley told a reporter in 1997, “That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

Come on Aaron…

from LDS .org…which teach this is a doctrine, are those that taught this going to die

In this chapter, President Snow teaches the doctrine that we can become like our Heavenly Father. In chapter 6, he gives practical counsel on how we can apply this doctrine in our lives.In this chapter, President Snow teaches the doctrine that we can become like our Heavenly Father. In chapter 6, he gives practical counsel on how we can apply this doctrine in our lives.

It is a current LDS teaching that this is doctrine!

You are waking a slippery slope here, so what is th e baseline for new teachings and death, with a LDS GA? It means after they die, false teachings are attributed to their death?

But this is a good conversation and lends to my OP.

Thanks

 

[Markk]

Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?​

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

No, did you read the quote I gave you from a fairly resent teaching manual…read chapter 36 see quote below.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/31129_eng.pdf

“They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. People who are not married in the temple may live in other parts of the celestial kingdom, but they will not be exalted…”

Aaron, go back and read my post 8…they talk from both sides of their mouths.

 

[Aaron32]

Which is to my point, they water it down and down play it…for you, but the other teachings, like chapter 47 of Gospel principles, and chapter 36 of Gospel Fundamentals…

If their so core and fundamental, why are they buried so far deepin those very old manuals? Are you referring to the old or new copy of Gospel Principles?

feed folks like BoJ and Ralf…who concede they will be Gods.

Really? They feed them? Like we all hang on every word of Gospel Fundamentals? Lol! SMH. Yes. I believe there are Mormons that measure their knowledge based on the "deep" doctrines. Those who I consider cultural Mormons.

IF LD believe they can become like ”Him”…and have all the power, glory and dominion that “He” has…then believe me, that is not even remotely close as to what a Christian would believe or how they would translate the Bible…which supports my assertion that the church needs to somehow force this nonsense on our interpretation of scripture.

But they're not forcing it, You are.

Christians believe ”through Christ” we can partake of the divine nature…not become just like Him, or even remotely close…not even a smidgen. believers are clothed in His righteousness, forever in His Grace…we wil always be His creation…and never be like Him…that is what we believe.

Right. People who are actually converted it's a non-issue because their focus is serving God and others, rather than what rewards they'll get.

This is good though, in that BoJ admitted he could become a God,yet you water it down…which was my exact point in the OP.

What point is that? Last time I checked, not all Christians interpret the Bible the same or place their focus in the same place. Give us a break, Markk. You're straining gnats here.

 

[Aaron32]

Come on Aaron…

from LDS .org…which teach this is a doctrine, are those that taught this going to die

Die off? I hope so. But probably not. There will always be people that love to focus on the sensational.

In this chapter, President Snow teaches the doctrine that we can become like our Heavenly Father. In chapter 6, he gives practical counsel on how we can apply this doctrine in our lives.

It is a current LDS teaching that this is doctrine!

There's that word again "doctrine".
Has the teaching existed? Yes. Is it heavily emphasized? Not that I know of.
Please show me where I could sign up for this class you speak of. I mean, maybe if you're attending BYU you'll find it somewhere, but your really gotta stop finding these obscure manuals and then claim these are "core" doctrines. This is ludicrous. We've been into "Come Follow Me" mode, and Home-Centered Church for 4 years now! It's really not the same as when you were in the Church.

You are waking a slippery slope here, so what is th e baseline for new teachings and death, with a LDS GA? It means after they die, false teachings are attributed to their death?

If they die a short time afterward, especially in Joseph Smith's case, I think it's a point worth taking into account. Obviously this isn't a point the Church would want to highlight.

But this is a good conversation and lends to my OP.

Thanks

You're welcome? I guess I'm missing the thrust of your overall message here.

From your OP: "One has to go back a few generations and more, in order to get to the real teachings."
Our critics are always obsessed about what's "real": the "real" Jesus, TBMs (aka. "real" Mormons), "real" teachings.
It's all smoke and mirrors, and only the critic know what's "real", like a conspiracy theorist.

I'm still waiting on your responses to my quotes on defining "doctrine" btw.

 

[Richard7]

I have been stressing the fact that the church forces a ”God-complex” on the male membership. It is a clear teaching that they can become a God and make worlds for their spirit children, Today however it is mostly watered down, especially to investigators and the general public… with words like “we can become like Him” with no elaboration or detail of what that means or entails. One has to go back a few generations and more, in order to get to the real teachings.

I’ll start with this…

• Lorenzo Snow (Mormonism's 5th president-prophet): “‘President Brimhall, these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods’” [Improvement Era (June 1919), 658–59, quoted in Presidents of the Church: Student Manual (2004), 90.]

This is not just a random assertion, everything thing he taught here is exactly what they teach today…this was originally taught in 1919, and then quoted in a teaching manual published by the church…this Doctrine, and can be found on LDS.org

So my point is with this being taught to LDS young adults…I certainly believe it is fair for a critic to assert it forces a God Complex to those that believe this. I understand if they believe this, they should openly teach it and defend it, instead of just talking around it publicly and stating it is misunderstood.

I’ll be adding more teaching like this by GA, and manuals, that support LDS becoming Gods and it’s lending to the God Complex.

Yep! we still teach it Markk...

Becoming Like God

Just as children can develop the attributes of their parents, each of us has the potential to become like our Heavenly Father.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

“God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. … So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”3 After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,” God said they had “become as one of us,”4 suggesting that a process of approaching godliness was already underway. Later in the Old Testament, a passage in the book of Psalms declares, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”

New Testament passages also point to this doctrine. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy on the grounds that “thou, being a man, makest thyself God,” He responded, echoing Psalms, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”6 In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus commanded His disciples to become “perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”7 In turn, the Apostle Peter referred to the Savior’s “exceeding great and precious promises” that we might become “partakers of the divine nature.”8 The Apostle Paul taught that we are “the offspring of God” and emphasized that as such “we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.”9 The book of Revelation contains a promise from Jesus Christ that “to him that over cometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”