Teachings that lead to a God Complex

Ralf, the bills match the copies from the original court record. Which changed everything.

But in all this we know one thing. Joseph was a money digger, and used a stone in his hat to find buried things, and used a stone in his hat to translate the Book of Mormon.
Ralf have you read the copy of Neely's docket?
Quoting DB, "It doesn't matter if he did or not. It's a copy that was ripped from the original and the copies that we have came from that altered document. Do you understand what altered means?

And yes I saw the billing statement. Maybe you could post the docket your talking about.

It looks like you have nothing else, he was released on his own Recognizance 25 , there for Madsen's defense fails here, as did your assertions.

That is not enough to "throw aways the Neely record and bill, the De Zeng, Nobel and just the fact of the different testimonies. Plus, we haven't even gotten into how Joseph stated later he was going to try to quit is money digging and find mean full employment.

Chuckle, there you go again, speculations and no source or first hand account by Joseph Smith...


This portion of the conversation has gone full circle, and we can say with all confidence that your assertions prove Joseph was indeed a Money Digger, which is what I also assert.
How about a first hand account from JS, Emma, JS Sr., Lucy Mack, brothers and sisters or friends of JS?
 
Why did you put so much faith in Whitmer's claims?
Ralf, I don't put any faith is any of this stuff.

When trying to construct history one has to take all the accounts into account. That just what a responsible historian or researcher does. So, when I try to get to the truth, I have to weigh how the person asserting their reconstruction, whether it is Hanna, Vogel, Bushman, the church or other, gets to their assertions. I read and research what they are saying, and foot notes are an important part of that...I try to follow then trough the best I can, and the internet allows that one can be very successful in doing this.

In regard to David Witmer, he is the most interviewed witness, somewhat well spoken, and consistent. He was one of three primary witnesses to the BoM. The BoM was translated at his house (owned by his father). His brother along with him are said to be scribes. His sister was reported to see the plates, and the translation process.

The prophet of the LDS church supports his account, and to collectively the GA approved essays, and different accounts on LDS , org. The current correlation of institute manuals supports his account also.

His testimony is actually the most consistent and supported.

Read this Ralf...this is what you church teaches and accepts, and they have had the seer stone for a very long time, yet chose to in 2014 or so, acknowledge it. And they acknowledged that David Witmer's account was true.


Why do you deny the church on this?
 
That is just not true and there is no proof that it was altered. The support for it as being reliable is real, there is absolutly zero support for an altered docket page.

I have pasted the copied dockets pages here maybe 20 times...remember when I showed you JS was a prisoner?

DB did not say tha,t BoJ did. And he nor you remotely understand the argument.

This is what DB wrote...

"But here is my question--which does not seem to be addressed in any source I can find:

If Emily Pearsall( Niece of Justice Neely) --tore the 1826 "trial" page(s) from Judge Neely's docket, and went to Utah with that record in the mid 1800's(which record suddenly disappears for a century)--then how did that very record then suddenly reappear again with the New York court records, under the discovery of Walters in the 1970's"

Which makes zero sense.

The torn docket pages were first published in England, in 1872 after Emily's death, which is 46 years, not a century. The bill, in Justice Neely's handwriting, was found in the basement of the county jail in Norwich, in 1971, which matched the docket page charges. I thought DB understood the argument, but I guess he does not. One was the page in his personal Docket, the other was a "bill" (invoice) to the county for his charges, again the bill being in his handwriting.

An interesting side note is that in in 1986, an overzealous Mormon, Ronald Vern Jackson, made a claim of forgery, and long story short, claimed that the bill was altered, which turned out it was, by him, trying to dispute it.

 
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That is just not true and there is no proof that it was altered. The support for it as being reliable is real, there is absolutly zero support for an altered docket page.

I have pasted the copied dockets pages here maybe 20 times...remember when I showed you JS was a prisoner?

DB did not say tha,t BoJ did. And he nor you remotely understand the argument.

This is what DB wrote...

"But here is my question--which does not seem to be addressed in any source I can find:

If Emily Pearsall( Niece of Justice Neely) --tore the 1826 "trial" page(s) from Judge Neely's docket, and went to Utah with that record in the mid 1800's(which record suddenly disappears for a century)--then how did that very record then suddenly reappear again with the New York court records, under the discovery of Walters in the 1970's"

Which makes zero sense.

The torn docket pages were first published in England, in 1872 after Emily's death, which is 46 years, not a century. The bill, in Justice Neely's handwriting, was found in the basement of the county jail in Norwich, in 1971, which matched the docket page charges. I thought DB understood the argument, but I guess he does not. One was the page in his personal Docket, the other was a "bill" (invoice) to the county for his charges, again the bill being in his handwriting.

An interesting side note is that in in 1986, an overzealous Mormon, Ronald Vern Jackson, made a claim of forgery, and long story short, claimed that the bill was altered, which turned out it was, by him, trying to dispute it.


I don't see how this affects the real evidence Markk...

Nibley's real point at issue is not whether or not there was a trial, but whether or not a record existed proving Joseph guilty of deceit​

Since Wesley Walters has found some bills related to the trial, the critics now claim that the case is proven and that Nibley has proven their case for them. Nothing is further from the truth. First of all you need to look at the whole quote. Nibley was chastising Tuttle for not actually using the trial record that he had. He was questioning why he would do that if it was so important.

"You knew its immense value as a weapon against Joseph Smith if its authenticity could be established. And the only way to establish authenticity was to get hold of the record book from which the pages had been purportedly torn. After all, you had only Miss Pearsall's word for it that the book ever existed. Why didn't you immediately send he back to find the book or make every effort to get hold of I? Why didn't you "unearth" it, as they later said you did? . . . The authenticity of the record still rests entirely on the confidential testimony of Miss Pearsall to the Bishop. And who was Miss Pearsall? A zealous old maid, apparently: "a woman helper in our mission," who lived right in the Tuttle home and would do anything to assist her superior. The picture I get is that of a gossipy old housekeeper. If this court record is authentic, it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith. Why, then, [speaking to Tuttle] was it not republished in your article in the Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge after 1891? . . . in 1906 Bishop Tuttle published his Reminiscences of a Missionary Bishop in which he blasts the Mormons as hotly as ever. . . yet in the final summary of his life's experiences he never mentions the story of the court record - his one claim to immortal fame and the gratitude of the human race if it were true!" (Nibley "The Myth Makers", 246)
The Pearsall account, which has never been produced, claims that the defendant was found guilty. The real point at issue is not whether or not there was a trial, but whether or not a record existed proving Joseph guilty of deceit. A document proving such guilt has not been found.

Fairmormon.
 
I don't see how this affects the real evidence Markk...
How, this has nothing to do with Nibley...do you even understand what the discussion is. What do you mean by "evidence?" Explain what you are even trying to assert. Nibley has been dead for years, he died in 2005...since then the church has changed their opinions, and concede that Joesph was both a money digger, and used a seer stone to translate a BoM...and Ironically I have given you the cf for this several times from churches own website.

Here it is again, bold mine.

In Joseph Smith’s day, some individuals claimed that they had a gift to “see,” or receive divine or supernatural messages, through seer stones. These beliefs came from the Bible and from European cultural traditions brought to early America by immigrants. Joseph Smith and his family accepted these beliefs, and Joseph occasionally used stones he located in the ground to help neighbors find missing objects or search for buried treasure.2

Make sure you listen to the video also, it says that you can get use to the reality that the church teaches that Joseph used a seer stone in his hat to translate the BoM.

And

"... According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument. ..."

 
I mis-read that, but it makes no difference to my point...what I misread was that David (his father) witnessed the translation. We know that at the least "Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, Emma and my brother John each at different times wrote for Joseph as he translated." Not just Oliver except for a few pages as you wrote earlier.

John was not his father as you wrote, but brother. It was his father apparently that witnessed the translation also with the stone in his hat.
 
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I mis-read that, but it makes no difference to my point...what I misread was that David (his father) witnessed the translation. We know that at the least "Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, Emma and my brother John each at different times wrote for Joseph as he translated." Not just Oliver except for a few pages as you wrote earlier.

John was not his father as you wrote, but brother. It was his father apparently that witnessed the translation also with the stone in his hat.
Yes! and what do you have from the Father? nothing, zero, zippo. What is your point?
 
Great…you are now admitting the seer stone was referred to as the U&T…good job Ralf…finally This is a true milestone

Now…the listen to Nelson video again with that in mind…here is part of the transcript of the video.

“…We know that they had a table like this. We know they had the golden plates, covered usually. And Joseph used these: the Urim and Thummim, seer stones, in the hat. And it was easier for him to see the light when he'd take that position…”
 
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And your point is?
That if you have a 700 square foot cabin with Peter, Mary, Christian, Jacob, John, Peter and Elizabeth Whitmer, along with Joseph and Emma, and Oliver, Hiram Page, and maybe even Martin Harris either living there or going in and out while the translation process was going on, there will be many folks seeing the process.
 
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I am not sure what you are even trying to convey here.

But... not just some accounts, most accounts, and your currents prophets and GA "blessing," meaning it is on the Essays and web site. He was there during the translation. David offered himself as a scribe to Joseph, it was his fathers home, and it is not known if he actually did act as ascribe of the BoM. Of the 500 or so original pages, there are only about have of the pages exist, so your assertion is not verifiable.

In his own words in the Manuscript History of the church, Jospeh said of David Whitmer, to his scribes...

" He proposed that we should have our board free of charge, and the assistance of one of his brothers to write for me, as also his own assistance when convenient. "


How do we all know that David had a bad memory? CFR.
 
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What was it used for, and how was it used?

I never claimed it more than an offer. The assistance he offered was clear in context. Ralf the transcripts they received from the RLDS have a scribe's handwriting they cannot pinpoint...it is not David's but could be anyone's, most likely another one of his brothers.

I gave you the full context, I gave you the link 7 times Ralf...7 times. And you post makes zero sense. Unless you are conceding it was a full house and several folks, witnesses the translation.
 
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Ok...we are in agreement that Joseph would say he could see buried things in the ground, as the many testimonies say. I also agree with you that he could not really see anything, he was just telling the folks such for income. But I also believe he like many others believed there were treasures buried in the area, such as Captain Kidd's. How not really seeing, but still searching blends together, I am not really sure, but I have thoughts on such.

Joseph told Josiah and the others to stop digging because the "enchantment" was too strong, which was a common theme among money diggers, in that they never found anything, there was always and excuse.

I gave you the evidence that said it was a offer, and I said it was an offer? What is your point, mine is he was deeply involved in the coming forth of the BoM...he is a primary witness for it, and it was at his father's house.

CFR that they sleep in the barn. I am not speculating at all...they were invited to stay in the house, and all evidence supports that.

We know that several people were scribes, we know from the newly provided transcripts (2014 ish) there is handwriting of someone that they can't even trace it to. We know Olivers future wife and David's sister, saw the process in the home many times...and all testify it was either done by the seer stone or the interpreters, and most testify it was with his face in a hat.

I personally, as do many historians, that it was done 100% with the seer stone, but the church teaches that he used both the interpreters and the stone interchangeably in the hat.


But this is a good post, we crossed another milestone in your believing he looked for things with and in the stone, but never actually saw anything. You earlier claimed you had not problem with the hat either. So, we are making progress.
 
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Ralf...CFR they hired him as a labor only, and not as a Seer. He was hired as such, and even told them when it was time to stop digging because the "enchantment" was too strong.

Bushman, Palmer, Vogel all wrote and tell in interviews that When Alvin was alive, and they owned the farm, they were making it work. But after Alvin died, it went south, they lost the farm, and the day they reprocessed the farm. Bushman, Vogel and Palmer also defending the Smiths by saying they let the farm go, because they were renting it, and did not want to put the effort into something they did not own. You continue to spout things you have not even tried to investigate. They lost their Farm Ralf, if they were so industrious, why did they lose the farm?

Money diggers never find anything of value...he was paid for his services as a glass looker...it paid about the same amount as those digging on the canal, about 12.00-14.00 a month. Joseph stated he was paid for his services as a Seer.

But again, you stated you don't read and research...you only look for snippets that keep your cracking testimony glued together.

From LDS . org

... "The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.” 18 As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure... ." click here ralf
 
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Chuckle, so where is your claim that he was a primary witness, you haven't and I have shown more evidence then you that David was not to be trusted since he hated JS and would do anything to bring him down.
In the front of the book of Mormon to start. He is championed by the church as such. Nelson quoted from "an address to all believers in Christ"...which I told you is a primary source. He brought Joseph and Emma to his father's home and was there during the process. Offered his help. His brother helped as a scribe. Emma was there and saw this, and testified to how it was done. Even Davids sister and Olivers future wife saw the process. I have given you countless links on all this, I can't make you research and study, that is up to you.

So what was the sleeping arrangement if you know so much about the inner workings of the household... you're make it up Markk, otherwise where can you source they all sleep in the house and on top of that you didn't even know they had a attic.
HuH...it is a 700 square foot house Ralph, about the size of a two-car garage! The article I gave you awhile back spoke of the attic-loft. Elizibeth saw the process many times and testified to it. They slept in the house ralf, not in the barn. There are accounts that speak of this, do your homework.

Sorry, is this you opinion or are you getting this from a source? Irrelevant if you can't back up your claims Markk.
Only scribes where, Harris, Emma, Oliver Cowdery and maybe David's brother.... Oliver did over 90 percent of the scibe work and you don't even mention him as a witness you willing to quote... why not Markk?
I gave you the link, some time ago, from the JS papers...but again you don't read and research. There is not any maybe about David's brother...it is fact. There may have been more folks helping, and we know for sure in the printer's manuscript, the one Joseph placed in the corners stone, there is handwriting of an unknown person, probably another Whitmer.

Many Historians? How many do you know of Markk, chuckle. I have put out more proof and evidence that shows the seer stone was never used. So you believe in David Whitmere and who else Markk... you don't mention others...

I can read and research...you haven't shown that the seer stone was not used, you just cut and paste without any narrative.

Go to the blog of Mormonism with the Murph...a believing active Mormon and listen to his interviews with Dan Vogel on the subject...there is no bashing, nothing but an objective study.

The LDS prophet says it was used, the GA confirm it was used, LDS . org say it was used...correlation back it up and print it being used in institute manuals, the Ensign printed it was used. are you saying that the church is wrong, and Ralf knows better? Even DB, and BoJ said it was used.

I gave you Martins accounts, Emma's accounts, Elizibeth's account... all with back up...if you refuse to read, I suppose once again you are not emotionally ready for this conversation.

More after work...
 
No what you are doing is just simply an old man, who is just ignoring the facts. Emma saw and testified of the stone in the hat as did Elizibeth. Ignorance is the softest pillow Ralf, and again you are clear not ready for this conversation. Fair teaches this, Richard Lloyd Anderson taught it in 1977. Royal Skousen, The Interpreter, BYU studies...etc.

Nelson your prophet understands and teach this, as do the GA, correlation do through teaching manuals. Even the church owned Desert News understood this 8 years ago.

Link edited
 
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LOL...where did you write enchantment? Which is a common theme in money digging, and slippery treasures. CFR where you discussed the magical part of his money digging and the enchantment of the mine.
 
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Nothing new here good buddy, Stoddard has already made us aware of the fact JS and family were caught up in the Book of Mormon translation and the Farm suffered from that....
CFR...they lost the farm around 1825, and the BoM wasn't translated until 4 years later. You are just making stuff up. CFR

Bushman, Vogel, and Plamer all believe they were doing okay until Alvin died, in 1823...then it went south. And again, the day it was reposed, Jose sr and jr were out money digging.

CFR.
 
CFR...bushman did not say they were lazy and poor, he said after they lost the house, they lost interest as renters. He stated what the neighbors said, which was not his opinion, but what the affidavits read. Bushman believes that the truth should be told, so when people do find out the truth, folks are not shocked.

This issue is here you can't deal with the truth, and make decisions based on on the facts, so you just deny what the historical record demands.
 
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Source please!


Joseph in the History of the Church, in is famous "frequently asked Questions." He admits here he was a paid money digger.

Tenth—”Was not Joseph Smith a money digger?”

Yes, but it was never a very profitable job for him, as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it.


Click here ralf
 
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