Telestial Kingdom of Glory

brotherofJared said:
Yes. Google it.
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I did. It says God suffers because he's perfectly compassionate. I addressed this when I acknowledged a fruit of the spirit is long suffering.
brotherofJared said:
Well, if you think the new testament is an official church, there's one. Do you want me to come up with others? God wept. Isn't that a sign of suffering?

You're clearly out of your depth.
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You criticized me for asking you to read one chapter equivocating to the entire book. And here you are literally telling me to search the entire new testament to find what your referring to.

How do you figure I'm out of my depth when I can and do clearly justify my answers, but you can't or won't?
brotherofJared said:
No. It's not the same.
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How's it different?
brotherofJared said:
Yes. And so? R u just quoting me for fun?
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True to form, just play the dumb card. That way you can relentlessly criticize me, but never be held accountable for your reasoning to justify your criticisms. I called this out from the beginning. It's turns out my complaints were more than just emotional grievances, but a means to clarify your debate tactics - and you've illustrated the truthfulness of my conclusions beautifully.

brotherofJared said:
I have to admit. Your posts aren't worth the time it takes.ti read them.
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No one's forcing you to read them.
 
Janice Bower said:
Jesus died and His blood cleanses us of all unrighteousness. Yet Mormonism teaches that those without faith can become clean through their own suffering. So they are clean but not forgiven? Why are clean people sent to a lower kingdom? This makes no sense and contradicts the Bible!
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But wouldn't you make the same claim about God dying for all men--and all men being justified of life, as a free gift to all men?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Janice Bower said:
There isn't a telestial kingdom,
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What is your evidence of that?

Janice Bower said:
people can't make themselves spiritually clean, without faith in Christ no one goes to a kingdom of glory.
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What is your evidence every knee won't bow, and every tongue confess? And what is your evidence this isn't true?

2 Corinthians 3:9---King James Version
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
 
Aaron32 said:
You criticized me for asking you to read one chapter equivocating to the entire book. And here you are literally telling me to search the entire new testament to find what your referring to.
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Yes. I'm glad you noticed. Not very helpful, is it?
Aaron32 said:
How do you figure I'm out of my depth when I can and do clearly justify my answers, but you can't or won't?
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Didn't you just point out how you don't clearly justify your answers? Here, just in case you missed it: "You criticized me for asking you to read one chapter equivocating to the entire book." Where do you see clarity in addressing the discussion? From my perspective (which you claim is reality), you spend most of your time avoiding answering the question presupposing that you know that the answer will just be ignored. I'm hard pressed to find an answer to any of my questions that doesn't include a lot of equivocating.
 
Aaron32 said:
True to form, just play the dumb card. That way you can relentlessly criticize me
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LOL. Yes. I can see the problem. Rather than answer the question, criticize me for asking the question and then equivocate.
Aaron32 said:
but never be held accountable for your reasoning to justify your criticisms. I called this out from the beginning. It's turns out my complaints were more than just emotional grievances, but a means to clarify your debate tactics - and you've illustrated the truthfulness of my conclusions beautifully.
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Equivocate, equivocate, equivocate and never answer the question.
 
brotherofJared said:
Yes. I'm glad you noticed. Not very helpful, is it?
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What's it called when somebody judges another person by standards they deliberately reject?
brotherofJared said:
Didn't you just point out how you don't clearly justify your answers? Here, just in case you missed it: "You criticized me for asking you to read one chapter equivocating to the entire book." Where do you see clarity in addressing the discussion? From my perspective (which you claim is reality), you spend most of your time avoiding answering the question presupposing that you know that the answer will just be ignored. I'm hard pressed to find an answer to any of my questions that doesn't include a lot of equivocating.
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But I actually did go back and clarify it. Didn't help much, did it?
What is it that your so uncertain on? What exactly do you want to know? I don't think you want to know anything, you just want to criticize me.
 
brotherofJared said:
Feeling guilt is not punishment. That is the natural result of wrongdoing. It can be assuaged and ignored. Punishment cannot.
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The Book of Mormon says otherwise:
Alma 11:
43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt.

2 Ne 9
14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness.
15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God
16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end

Mosiah 3
25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls
 
Aaron32 said:
The Book of Mormon says otherwise:
Alma 11:
43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt.
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That is not punishment. The punishment comes after we are judged.
Aaron32 said:
2 Ne 9
14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness.
15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God
16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end
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Guilt is still not punishment. That comes after judgment and no amount of guilt will prevent the filthy from being consigned to eternal punishment.
Aaron32 said:
Mosiah 3
25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls
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Guilt is something you can have in the presence of the Lord, Punishment is something that comes afterward when the Lord is not present.

It's common sense. If I stole something, I'll feel a little guilty. When I'm caught, I'll feel very guilty but when I'm punished, I'll feel real physical pain or deprivation of privileges. Guilt and punishment are not the same.
 
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