Temporal or Eternal Payment of Sin

balshan

Well-known member
This to me is a strange belief. The temporal punishment of sin. This implies Christ's death was not sufficient for the total forgiveness of sins.

Catechism1863

Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."



While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.


So then this temporal punishment is removed by time in purgatory, confession, indulgences, prayers to Mary, prayers by monks that you have paid to say them for you. Are these the only ways this punishment can be removed? Where is this temporal punishment in scripture? If confession is the answer for the removal, why do RCs only not go to confession daily?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Temporal punishment due to sin involves at least two aspects: (a) the necessity of justice (that we make reparation for what we have done) and (b) attachment due to sin (that sin deforms our selves away from the image of God). By acts of charity, prayer and God's grace, we are purified (conformed to Christ) and make amends for our sins (serve justice). None of this implies that Christ's death was insufficient for our forgiveness because it is not about forgiveness. We are forgiven through repentance and faith in Christ and his death on the cross secured salvation for us.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Temporal punishment due to sin involves at least two aspects: (a) the necessity of justice (that we make reparation for what we have done) and (b) attachment due to sin (that sin deforms our selves away from the image of God). By acts of charity, prayer and God's grace, we are purified (conformed to Christ) and make amends for our sins (serve justice). None of this implies that Christ's death was insufficient for our forgiveness because it is not about forgiveness. We are forgiven through repentance and faith in Christ and his death on the cross secured salvation for us.
Well please show where this is biblical. I would think that penance for child abusers should have been to go to the police and tell the truth. However, McArdle in all of his confessions was just told by different priests to go and pray. This obviously does not make amends. But would not that be a grave sin and would that also mean that person is going to hell fires? Is confession enough.

I believe that one should make amends to a person one has wronged. This is a conscience thing. I mean that is Matt 5:23-24. But this does not mean that Jesus death for my sins was not enough. I would do it because it is the right thing to do, not because I would feel hell fires. I would not feel any peace until I did the right thing. Even if I hadn't mean something the wrong way but thought my words could be taken and cause pain, I would speak to that person and say I am sorry. Often they would laugh and say we know you so understood what you meant. That was me before I found a relationship with Jesus.

The following are not acts of charity at all:

removed by time in purgatory, confession, indulgences, prayers to Mary, prayers by monks that you have paid to say them for you.

So they are not in scripture and will do absolutely nothing.

I believe all believers should do acts of charity, because we follow Jesus and Jesus' whole life was one major act of charity. It will not make one iota of difference to this so called attachment to sin. They only way we change is when we are saved and changed. We are given a new mind.

I have noticed that now it is not required to go to confession for venial sins but surely it would be a necessity to avoid the non existent purgatory. We were taught you had to go to confession for all sin, grave and venial, and you could not go to communion even with venial sin unconfessed.

The only thing that is required for us when we sin is true repentance.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
I believe that one should make amends to a person one has wronged. This is a conscience thing. I mean that is Matt 5:23-24. But this does not mean that Jesus death for my sins was not enough.
It was enough.
I would do it because it is the right thing to do, not because I would feel hell fires.
You're not going to hell if you are forgiven.
I would not feel any peace until I did the right thing.
Exactly. That's the point I'm trying to make. That as someone who is saved, you want to be conformed more to Christ - do the right thing - and this is what purification is all about. It's not about being forgiven from sin: Jesus did that.
The only thing that is required for us when we sin is true repentance.
But do we change as people? Is that required? Is sanctification required or just optional?
 

balshan

Well-known member
It was enough.

You're not going to hell if you are forgiven.

Exactly. That's the point I'm trying to make. That as someone who is saved, you want to be conformed more to Christ - do the right thing - and this is what purification is all about. It's not about being forgiven from sin: Jesus did that.

But do we change as people? Is that required? Is sanctification required or just optional?
No the point you are making is that you need purgatory and have not provided scriptural evidence for this. If we do not change as people, it means we do not grow.

How about answering my questions which I have posted twice before asking your own.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
No the point you are making is that you need purgatory and have not provided scriptural evidence for this.
You need sanctification. If someone is truly sanctified in this life, then they don't need purgatory (or to be purified at death).
If we do not change as people, it means we do not grow.
True.
How about answering my questions which I have posted twice before asking your own.
These questions?

"So then this temporal punishment is removed by time in purgatory, confession, indulgences, prayers to Mary, prayers by monks that you have paid to say them for you. Are these the only ways this punishment can be removed? Where is this temporal punishment in scripture? If confession is the answer for the removal, why do RCs only not go to confession daily?"

Gladly.

- Are these the only ways this punishment can be removed? No. Purgatory is about purification. Upon death, if we are not fully sanctified we will be purified, so however that takes place that's purgatory. Confession doesn't remove temporal punishment - it is about forgiveness of sins. Prayers are one means but you can also grow in love, be more charitable, grow in your faith (the corporal acts of mercy are some examples).

- Where is this temporal punishment in scripture? I wouldn't point to a single verse as clinching it but there are many that substantiate the principle: that when we sin, we cause bad effects in the world and justice demands these bad effects be restored. If someone who is saved doesn't care to restore such bad effects that he caused, won't that hinder his sanctification? A good example is Zacchaeus, who although was saved (Jesus specifically says this), goes on to make reparation.

- If confession is the answer for the removal, why do RCs only not go to confession daily? Confession doesn't removal temporal punishment but guilt. The sacrament of confession is for mortal sins, however, nothing is stopping someone from going daily. Plus, we do confess daily when we pray to God (e.g. in the Lord's Prayer).
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
This to me is a strange belief. The temporal punishment of sin. This implies Christ's death was not sufficient for the total forgiveness of sins.

Catechism1863

Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."



While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.


So then this temporal punishment is removed by time in purgatory, confession, indulgences, prayers to Mary, prayers by monks that you have paid to say them for you. Are these the only ways this punishment can be removed? Where is this temporal punishment in scripture? If confession is the answer for the removal, why do RCs only not go to confession daily?
"Purgatory" is satan's BEST JOKE on Catholics, who, upon finding themselves there, will quickly realize that it's really HELL - they were never born again, and they're NEVER getting out. There's no such thing as "Venial sin" (ALL SIN is MORTAL unless it's cleansed/removed). Some Catholics DO go to mass daily (for all the good it does them).
 

balshan

Well-known member
You need sanctification. If someone is truly sanctified in this life, then they don't need purgatory (or to be purified at death).

True.

These questions?

"So then this temporal punishment is removed by time in purgatory, confession, indulgences, prayers to Mary, prayers by monks that you have paid to say them for you. Are these the only ways this punishment can be removed? Where is this temporal punishment in scripture? If confession is the answer for the removal, why do RCs only not go to confession daily?"

Gladly.

- Are these the only ways this punishment can be removed? No. Purgatory is about purification. Upon death, if we are not fully sanctified we will be purified, so however that takes place that's purgatory. Confession doesn't remove temporal punishment - it is about forgiveness of sins. Prayers are one means but you can also grow in love, be more charitable, grow in your faith (the corporal acts of mercy are some examples).

- Where is this temporal punishment in scripture? I wouldn't point to a single verse as clinching it but there are many that substantiate the principle: that when we sin, we cause bad effects in the world and justice demands these bad effects be restored. If someone who is saved doesn't care to restore such bad effects that he caused, won't that hinder his sanctification? A good example is Zacchaeus, who although was saved (Jesus specifically says this), goes on to make reparation.

- If confession is the answer for the removal, why do RCs only not go to confession daily? Confession doesn't removal temporal punishment but guilt. The sacrament of confession is for mortal sins, however, nothing is stopping someone from going daily. Plus, we do confess daily when we pray to God (e.g. in the Lord's Prayer).
Questions I have asked are the following as well:

So then this temporal punishment is removed by time in purgatory, confession, indulgences, prayers to Mary, prayers by monks that you have paid to say them for you. Are these the only ways this punishment can be removed? Where is this temporal punishment in scripture? If confession is the answer for the removal, why do RCs only not go to confession daily?

Okay prayer to Mary does absolutely nothing. Seriously prayer is not charity, it does not make you grow in love. Charity/love interchangeable words in a lot of ways. Charity is doing things for others. Not paying some monks to pray you out of purgatory. Not praying to the dead (in Christ) who do not care about this world anymore.

Eccles 9:5-6

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

You have said that confession doesn't do it. But isn't part of confession making things right with the neighbour you have wronged. I asked why for child abusers they aren't told to go to the police for their penance.

I find that you not quoting scripture but just making a broad statement an acknowledgement that it is not in scripture. As you have offered no support for these beliefs.

Why has the RC changed its teaching that you should go to confession for venial sins. How can you go to communion if you have unforgiven venial sins? It means you are going to communion unclean. We were taught always go to confession before communion even for venial sins.

If you are forgiven why do still need punishment. As a teacher a student would do the wrong thing, speak poorly. I would discuss this with them and say let us start afresh. I forgive you. I did not then punish them. I found that teaching them they were forgiven brought about much better behaviour.
 
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mica

Well-known member
Well please show where this is biblical. I would think that penance for child abusers should have been to go to the police and tell the truth. However, McArdle in all of his confessions was just told by different priests to go and pray. This obviously does not make amends. But would not that be a grave sin and would that also mean that person is going to hell fires? Is confession enough.

I believe that one should make amends to a person one has wronged. This is a conscience thing. I mean that is Matt 5:23-24. But this does not mean that Jesus death for my sins was not enough. I would do it because it is the right thing to do, not because I would feel hell fires. I would not feel any peace until I did the right thing. Even if I hadn't mean something the wrong way but thought my words could be taken and cause pain, I would speak to that person and say I am sorry. Often they would laugh and say we know you so understood what you meant. That was me before I found a relationship with Jesus.

The following are not acts of charity at all:

removed by time in purgatory, confession, indulgences, prayers to Mary, prayers by monks that you have paid to say them for you.

So they are not in scripture and will do absolutely nothing.

I believe all believers should do acts of charity, because we follow Jesus and Jesus' whole life was one major act of charity. It will not make one iota of difference to this so called attachment to sin. They only way we change is when we are saved and changed. We are given a new mind.

I have noticed that now it is not required to go to confession for venial sins but surely it would be a necessity to avoid the non existent purgatory. We were taught you had to go to confession for all sin, grave and venial, and you could not go to communion even with venial sin unconfessed.

The only thing that is required for us when we sin is true repentance.
I know we did too. I wondered when I read some things posted here by catholics but figured it must have been another change from Vat II. before much of that was in place I was out of the RCC.

the 'as it was from the beginning' claim by catholics sure doesn't sound like the RCC anymore. It has been busy changing, changing, changing!
 

balshan

Well-known member
I know we did too. I wondered when I read some things posted here by catholics but figured it must have been another change from Vat II. before much of that was in place I was out of the RCC.

the 'as it was from the beginning' claim by catholics sure doesn't sound like the RCC anymore. It has been busy changing, changing, changing!
Yes we have lived through the changes of the unchanging church.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Questions I have asked are the following as well:

So then this temporal punishment is removed by time in purgatory, confession, indulgences, prayers to Mary, prayers by monks that you have paid to say them for you. Are these the only ways this punishment can be removed? Where is this temporal punishment in scripture? If confession is the answer for the removal, why do RCs only not go to confession daily?
Yep, they're the questions I answered in the previous post.
Okay prayer to Mary does absolutely nothing. Seriously prayer is not charity, it does not make you grow in love. Charity/love interchangeable words in a lot of ways. Charity is doing things for others. Not paying some monks to pray you out of purgatory. Not praying to the dead (in Christ) who do not care about this world anymore.
Praying for those in need is not an act of charity? Can't praying for others help you grow in love - indeed, wouldn't be moving from a position of not praying for others to moving to a position of praying for others itself be growing in love?
Eccles 9:5-6

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
So, the dead have no more love anymore? Was Paul wrong when he said that not even death separates us from the love of God in Christ Jesus?

I'd be careful with quoting Ecclesiastes to prove the point you want to, as it can also be used to prove points you would not agree with. Ecclesiastes has to be interpreted in the light of Christian revelation.
You have said that confession doesn't do it. But isn't part of confession making things right with the neighbour you have wronged. I asked why for child abusers they aren't told to go to the police for their penance.
That's part of penance, yes, but not the sacrament of confession itself - i.e. you could have confession without penance.
I find that you not quoting scripture but just making a broad statement an acknowledgement that it is not in scripture. As you have offered no support for these beliefs.
That's fine. I really can't be bothered looking up passages to support temporal punishment due to sin. If you're really interested, I'm sure a quick internet search will find you a Catholic site that has already done so.
Why has the RC changed its teaching that you should go to confession for venial sins. How can you go to communion if you have unforgiven venial sins? It means you are going to communion unclean. We were taught always go to confession before communion even for venial sins.
Confession is for mortal sins. You can go to ask for forgiveness for venial sins, of course, but prayers will suffice. Before we have communion in Mass, we pray to God for forgiveness of venial sins (the Confetior and surrounding prayers).
If you are forgiven why do still need punishment. As a teacher a student would do the wrong thing, speak poorly. I would discuss this with them and say let us start afresh. I forgive you. I did not then punish them. I found that teaching them they were forgiven brought about much better behaviour.
Because forgiveness and reparation are different things. Reparation (or punishment) would be essentially about (a) justice and (b) reforming character. Forgiveness can help to do this, of course, but it won't often of itself suffice. I think one would be a poor teacher if one failed to punish a student just because they said sorry and meant it. There are consequences to our actions and young people need to learn that.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Yep, they're the questions I answered in the previous post.

Praying for those in need is not an act of charity? Can't praying for others help you grow in love - indeed, wouldn't be moving from a position of not praying for others to moving to a position of praying for others itself be growing in love?

So, the dead have no more love anymore? Was Paul wrong when he said that not even death separates us from the love of God in Christ Jesus?

I'd be careful with quoting Ecclesiastes to prove the point you want to, as it can also be used to prove points you would not agree with. Ecclesiastes has to be interpreted in the light of Christian revelation.

That's part of penance, yes, but not the sacrament of confession itself - i.e. you could have confession without penance.

That's fine. I really can't be bothered looking up passages to support temporal punishment due to sin. If you're really interested, I'm sure a quick internet search will find you a Catholic site that has already done so.

Confession is for mortal sins. You can go to ask for forgiveness for venial sins, of course, but prayers will suffice. Before we have communion in Mass, we pray to God for forgiveness of venial sins (the Confetior and surrounding prayers).

Because forgiveness and reparation are different things. Reparation (or punishment) would be essentially about (a) justice and (b) reforming character. Forgiveness can help to do this, of course, but it won't often of itself suffice. I think one would be a poor teacher if one failed to punish a student just because they said sorry and meant it. There are consequences to our actions and young people need to learn that.
You answered not very well. No support for your opinions.

Paul said separate us from the love of God. Let us get Paul's quote right:

Roms 8:38, 39

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. It does not say separate us from the love of those who are dead in Christ.

You changed the meaning of that verse.

Love grows from doing the work of Jesus, looking after others, bringing them into relationship with him, making everything you do as to Him. Not from praying to the dead. That is a total waste of time.

Not what confession used to be. This new RCC is so mild on sin.

What a load of rubbish about forgiveness. My husband is an amazing perso, he really forgives people. He doesn't even remember the hurt they cause him and he never wants to punish them. They learn from his love. Love changes people. Where does Jesus say I forgive you but you need to be punished. That is rubbish.

What does God say about remembering sins:

Hebrews 10:17

Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds

If penance was a truly real thing then those priests would have been handing themselves over to the police. They never made things right with their victims. The penance of praying the Hail Marys and the Our Fathers with no change of heart is a total waste of time. I find RCC changes scripture to a lot of words that are they do not seem to practice.
 
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jonathan_hili

Well-known member
You answered not very well. No support for your opinions.

Paul said separate us from the love of God. Let us get Paul's quote right:

Roms 8:38, 39

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. It does not say separate us from the love of those who are dead in Christ.
Yes, but that's not what I said. You cited Ecclesiastes that says that those who are dead have no love anymore. The RSV renders it this way: "Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished..." If it's true that their love has perished, then how can they love God when dead? Wouldn't that mean that something - namely, death - has separated us (when dead) from God's love?
You changed the meaning of that verse.
In what way?
Love grows from doing the work of Jesus, looking after others, bringing them into relationship with him, making everything you do as to Him. Not from praying to the dead. That is a total waste of time.
But you said that prayer of itself is not an act of love: "Seriously prayer is not charity, it does not make you grow in love." I disagree. Praying can very well be doing the work of Jesus.

What a load of rubbish about forgiveness. My husband is an amazing perso, he really forgives people. He doesn't even remember the hurt they cause him and he never wants to punish them. They learn from his love. Love changes people. Where does Jesus say I forgive you but you need to be punished. That is rubbish.
I agree, love changes people. God bless your husband for being so loving and forgiving.
What does God say about remembering sins:

Hebrews 10:17

Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.
We're not talking about sins - they are forgiven. We're talking about temporal punishment due to sin.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Yes, but that's not what I said. You cited Ecclesiastes that says that those who are dead have no love anymore. The RSV renders it this way: "Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished..." If it's true that their love has perished, then how can they love God when dead? Wouldn't that mean that something - namely, death - has separated us (when dead) from God's love?

In what way?

But you said that prayer of itself is not an act of love: "Seriously prayer is not charity, it does not make you grow in love." I disagree. Praying can very well be doing the work of Jesus.


I agree, love changes people. God bless your husband for being so loving and forgiving.

We're not talking about sins - they are forgiven. We're talking about temporal punishment due to sin.
You changed the meaning of that verse. I don't think love will be the same when we are dead and yes the passage shows that the dead are no longer interested in what happens on earth. Prayer to Mary and the dead is not an act of love. Let me see I see my neighbour cannot mow their lawn, I will just say no worries I will show you love I will pray. No something is missing.

My point no temporal punishment due to sin. God forgives and he forgets it. He doesn't no you still need to be punished. I will say that sometimes if we break the law there is a consequence for breaking the law.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
You changed the meaning of that verse. I don't think love will be the same when we are dead and yes the passage shows that the dead are no longer interested in what happens on earth. Prayer to Mary and the dead is not an act of love. Let me see I see my neighbour cannot mow their lawn, I will just say no worries I will show you love I will pray. No something is missing.

My point no temporal punishment due to sin. God forgives and he forgets it. He doesn't no you still need to be punished.
These are the verses:

"[5] For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.
[6] Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun."

It states, quite clearly, that "their [the dead] love and their hate and their envy have already perished".

If you can help your neighbour and don't do that, that might be wrong. If you can pray for them and don't do that, that might be wrong too. Corporal and spiritual works of mercy.
 

mica

Well-known member
Yep, they're the questions I answered in the previous post.

Praying for those in need is not an act of charity? Can't praying for others help you grow in love - indeed, wouldn't be moving from a position of not praying for others to moving to a position of praying for others itself be growing in love?

So, the dead have no more love anymore? Was Paul wrong when he said that not even death separates us from the love of God in Christ Jesus?

I'd be careful with quoting Ecclesiastes to prove the point you want to, as it can also be used to prove points you would not agree with. Ecclesiastes has to be interpreted in the light of Christian revelation.
...
what the RCC makes up is not Christian revelation.
 

balshan

Well-known member
These are the verses:

"[5] For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.
[6] Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun."

It states, quite clearly, that "their [the dead] love and their hate and their envy have already perished".

If you can help your neighbour and don't do that, that might be wrong. If you can pray for them and don't do that, that might be wrong too. Corporal and spiritual works of mercy.
Yep I know what that verse says. Yep it has perished. Their focus is on God, their attachment to the world has gone. Therefore waste of time praying to them.

Doing acts of love is not temporal punishment, if it is to make up for a wrong you have done, then you are doing it for the wrong reason.
 

mica

Well-known member
These are the verses:

"[5] For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.
[6] Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun."

It states, quite clearly, that "their [the dead] love and their hate and their envy have already perished".

If you can help your neighbour and don't do that, that might be wrong. If you can pray for them and don't do that, that might be wrong too. Corporal and spiritual works of mercy.
they are dead and gone with no part in what is on earth.
 
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