Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian (reasons 1-4)

ontheBeam

Member
Yes. All rules apply (1 Cor. 15:44-46).

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Hi V-C, is it your contention that the Law, meaning the Laws of the Sinai covenant, have not passed away, that Jesus didn't fulfill those laws and they are binding on those God imposed them on?
 

Icyspark

Active member
Oh, it helps:

May this help you also:

If you would like further materials, these may help you in your studies:

The Great Clock of Time:

God works upon the plan of 7, from Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 unto Revelation and the final scenes.

6 of work, and the 7th of rest, for even the devil knew how long he had to work, Revelation 12:12.

Age of the Earth (PDF) -

The Redemption of the Creation – 7000 Years And The Everlasting Gospel (Powerpoint) -

7000 Year Plan Of The Everlasting Gospel – Bible & Historical Quotations (PDF) -

The End Of Time – Vance Ferrell (PDF) -

Eternity Past to Eternity Future, & the 2300 Day/Years of Daniel 8:14 (Picture) -

7 Days – 7000 Years Chart (Picture) -

Feasts of the Lord Chart (Picture) -

Feasts of the Lord (Powerpoint) -

7 Branch Candlestick, Psalms 77:13, Encompassing Chart (Picture) -

Revelation 12 (Powerpoint) -

Daniel 7 & Revelation 13 Parallel Language -

Daniel 11:40-45, 12:1-3 -

Daniel & Revelation Structure (Psalms 77:13) -

The Daily Daily (with Images) -

Daniel 8:14 (Cleansed) -

Daniel 9:24 - 70 Weeks (Contiguous) -

Daniel 9:26 - The People Of The Prince That Shall Come -

20 Reasons To Apply The Day For A Year In Prophecy -

AntiChrist Seated -

Generous resource tools











Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Hi Vitamin-Christ,

I perused a couple of your links and examined the titles of a number of the others and am not seeing how they relate to the topic at hand?

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
My covenant to Israel.
Jesus is the real Israel (Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1; his children are his disciples; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19).

Mat 2:13-15; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21

'Israel' after the flesh, as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire.
Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.​
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:​
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.​
Mat 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,​
Mat 2:20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.​
Mat 2:21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.​
Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.​

Notice, Matthew, by inspriation of the Holy Ghost, said that the real and full fulfillment of Hosaa 11:1, was Jesus. What is the name of the child that God calls "my son" therein? Jesus has many names, including "David" in Ezekiel, "Adam" in 1 Corinthians 15, and so many others.

Jesus is Israel. He is the "prince (overcomer) with God" His Father.

Jesus, just as the typical Israel of old (named after the real Heavenly Israel, the one with whom Jacob wrestled), Jesus too has children, even "12":

Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.​

Paul (author of Hebrews by the Holy Ghost), just cited Isaiah in relation to Jesus. What text was He citing? Let's see:

Isa 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.​
Isa 8:9 Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.​
Isa 8:10 Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.​
Isa 8:11 For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,​
Isa 8:12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.​
Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.​
Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.​
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.​
1Pe_2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.​
Isa 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.​
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.​
Isa 8:17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.​
Isa 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.​
Paul was citing Isaiah 8:18 in it's proper context. Jesus has "children" and those "children" given to Him by the Father, are "my disciples", even as He says in the NT:​
Joh_13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.​
Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?​
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

The Father made an eternal covenant with the Son in eternity and witnessed by the Holy Ghost. Jesus was to fulfill His vows, and so the Father would fulfill His:

Psa_61:5 For thou, O God, hast heard my vows: thou hast given me the heritage of those that fear thy name.​
Psa_116:14 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people.​
Psa_116:18 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people,
Jesus is the real overcomer:

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.​
Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.​

Yes. Jesus is Israel. The Sabbath was made "for" Him. Mark 2:27; Colossians 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:45,47. It was the Father's gift to the Son, and the Father told Him how to do it, see Genesis 1; Proverbs 8.
 
the 613 laws
No such thing:

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

Ok. I know how some like ordered lists, so hear goes:

[1.] To begin with, there is not a single place in all the TaNaKh, neither the portion thereof, the Torah (Gen-Deut) where God, Moses, Joshua, or any person of heaven above, or on this earth below, state on biblical record that there are exactly '613' 'mitzvot'. For the New Testament minded (Matt-Rev), the same applies also. Again, absent. Jesus, as a final example (for the New Testament minded), did not once enumerate the 'mitzvot' of the Torah for us in such fashion, to '613' or any other such number.

[2.] The enumeration of '613' is a Rabbincal, yea even after a Talmudical, fashioning or calculation or enumeration. No one has to take my word for this, it is said as much on the very site so kindly provided to us (it has been provided so many times, I lost count):

"... Below is a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, but I have consulted other sources as well. As I said in the page on halakhah, Rambam's list is probably the most widely accepted list, but it is not the only one. The order is my own, as are the explanations of how some rules are derived from some biblical passages. ..." - http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
As a side note:​
The RaMBaM (whom I have read on numerous occasions, with others, such as RaMBaN, Pirke, etc) is actually, Ra(bbi) M(oses) Ba(ni) M(aimon), aka Maimonides, of the 12th cent Morocco & Egypt (during the Almoravid (Muslim) empire, and died under the Ayyubid sultanate) - Link

[3.] RaMBaM's listing isn't the only one. There are other listings, by other Rabbis, all several thousand years removed from Moses or Joshua, and the website provided demonstrates the accuracy of this point.

[4.] RaMBaM's order of listing isn't the only one. There are other orderings, by other Rabbis and persons non-Rabbi (scholars, etc), and again, the very website provided, demonstrates this by stating it out as matters of fact, and in personal ordered listing preferred instead to RaMBaM's (example 2 orders at least on the face of it).

[5.] RaMBaM's explanation for the listing and ordering thereof is not the only one. There are explanations, just as there are other listings and orderings by other Rabbis, etc. (generally, not exclusively, following after RaMBaM, (thus post 12th cent), possible just more easily accessible)

[6.] The '613' number is for some calculated on Gematraic principles, with differing reasons or starting points by differing Rabbis, and for this reason, some disagree that it should be said number, for instance:

"... I disagree there are 613 Mitzvot because the explanation for the number is based on gematria, however the gematria of the Torah is not Standard ( https://www.academia.edu/39659743/Long_preview_of_The_Genesis_Wheel_and_other_hermeneutical_essays ). Instead of the letters Shin and Tav having the value of 300 and 400, they are valued at 3 and 4, and using this most secret gematria the number of Mitzvot would be 217 (31 × 7). However 613 is discovered with this gematria in the opening verses of Genesis so it is still a very significant gematria number.​
We first get the idea of 613 mitzvot from Rabbi Simlai:​
From Makkot 24a:
"דרש רבי שמלאי שש מאות ושלש עשרה מצות נאמרו לו למשה שלש מאות וששים וחמש לאוין כמנין ימות החמה ומאתים וארבעים ושמונה עשה כנגד איבריו של אדם אמר רב המנונא מאי קרא (דברים לג, ד) תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה תורה בגימטריא שית מאה וחד סרי הוי אנכי ולא יהיה לך מפי הגבורה שמענום
§ Rabbi Simlai taught: There were 613 mitzvot stated to Moses in the Torah, consisting of 365 prohibitions corresponding to the number of days in the solar year, and 248 positive mitzvot corresponding to the number of a person’s limbs. Rav Hamnuna said: What is the verse that alludes to this? It is written: “Moses commanded to us the Torah, an inheritance of the congregation of Jacob” (Deuteronomy 34:4). The word Torah, in terms of its numerical value [gimatriyya], is 611, the number of mitzvot that were received and taught by Moses our teacher. In addition, there are two mitzvot: “I am the Lord your God” and: “You shall have no other gods” (Exodus 20:2, 3), the first two of the Ten Commandments, that we heard from the mouth of the Almighty, for a total of 613."[1]
However the word תורה is valued at 215; Tav:4 + Vav:6 + Resh:200 + Heh:5 = 215. So if we add the two for the first two commandments the people heard at Sinai: 215 + 2 = 217.​
Regarding the number of צִיצִית which is supposed to equal the number of Mitzvot:​
Rashi "וזכרתם את כל מצות ה'. שֶׁמִּנְיַן גִּימַטְרִיָּא שֶׁל צִיצִית שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת, וּשְׁמוֹנָה חוּטִין וַחֲמִשָּׁה קְשָׁרִים הֲרֵי תרי"ג (תנחומא): You will remember all of Adonoy’s commandments. As the numerical value of צִיצִית is 600, and the eight threads and five knots equal 613."[2]
צִיצִית = 204​
plus 8 threads and 5 knots = 217.​
You can check the sums on this gematria calculator which uses the correct gematria of the Torah; https://shematria.pythonanywhere.com/
Vilna Gaon in Orot Hagra also disagreed that 613 was the correct number, saying;​
It definitely cannot be said that only 613, and no more, come under the category of mitzvot. For if so, there are only three mitzvot from Berei**** until Bo, and many portions of the Torah contain no mitzvot. That is not plausible… The mitzvot are thus multitudinous beyond enumeration… ..." - https://www.reddit.com/r/Gematria/comments/d0jzef
 
the 613 laws
No such thing continued:

[7.] Moses specifically said by inspiration of God, that what God spoke and wrote at Mt. Sinai with His own voice and finger from Heaven were "the ten commandments". God came down upon Mt. Sinai in awesome majesty, with the whole mountain covered in the fire of the presence of the Holy Angels of God, so that none but those whom God called up were able to come near.

Exo_34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.​
Deu_4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.​
Deu_10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.​

In each place the Hebrew word "[1697] dabar" is used, as the Ten Commandments are not merely laws or commands, but individual promises of God each that He would perform in those who would walk in His covenant. More on that later as needful.

[8.] The "ten commandments" that God spake in Person to all the people without the mediator Moses, were a complete Law, nothing further being added unto them, except later as to be written in a scroll/book through a mediator (Moses):

Deu_5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.​

[9.] The "ten commandments" were written by God's own finger originally on sapphire stone and which second set was placed into the "pattern" Ark of the Covenant in the earthly tabernacle (Exodus 25:16,21).

[10.] The other precepts, statutes, laws, commands, ordinances, etc were all given by God through the mediator Moses, to be written by Moses' hand, and placed not inside of the Ark, but to be placed in the side of the Ark:

Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.​

So, while important, God makes distinction, by several means. The many other things which God gave fall under the umbrella of the Ten Commandments:

Psa_119:96 I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.​

and as such '613' probably wouldn't even come close to the depth of God's Ten Commandments, which are the expansion of His perfect character of Love, which itself is expressed in the greatest (Deuteronomy 6:5) and second greatest commandments (Leviticus 19:17-18) (both of whose contexts are the Ten Commandments, see Deut. 5, etc).

[11.] The '613' enumeration only considers material within the texts of the Torah (Gen-Deut), and not any other material from the Nevi'im or Ketuvim, as if God somehow stopped talking and giving commands through men, priests or prophets or kings, see Isaiah 8:20 (Law and Testimony)

[12.] Even from a basic search of scripture, the Torah itself makes differences between words:

Gen 26:5 KJB Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.​
Gen 26:5 KJB Str. BecauseH6118 thatH834 AbrahamH85 obeyedH8085 my voice,H6963 and keptH8104 my charge,H4931 my commandments,H4687 my statutes,H2708 and my laws.H8451
Gen 26:5 HOT עקב אשׁר־שׁמע אברהם בקלי וישׁמר משׁמרתי מצותי חקותי ותורתי׃
Gen 26:5 HOT Str. עקבH6118 אשׁרH834 שׁמעH8085 אברהםH85 בקליH6963 וישׁמרH8104 משׁמרתיH4931 מצותיH4687 חקותיH2708 ותורתי׃H8451 (apologies for how this posts, not much can be done about that, I used highligher to mark the beginning and ending, so while the sentence reads left to right, each individual word correctly reads right to left)​
Gen 26:5 HOT Translit. ëqev ásher-shäma av'rähäm B'qoliy waYish'mor mish'mar'Tiy mitz'wotay chuQôtay w'tôrotäy​

Notice the distinction made between H4687 (mitzvot) and H8451 (torah), which is again found in Exodus 16:28,

Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?​

This should suffice for now.
 
All the promises under "My covenant" no longer exist as rules and promises.
The "my covenant" of God was never the 'old covenant' (see Romans 3:31; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16; Ezekiel 36:24-38, 37:26-28; 2 Corinthians 3:1-3, &c). In Exodus 19, there are two covenants.

[1] God's covenant (aka "my covenant", or "His covenant"), which is the eternal and everlasting covenant (Ex. 19:5)​
[2] their covenant which the peoples with God, "If ... then ... and ...", "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do." (Ex. 19:8), which is why in Hebrews 8 it speaks of their faulty promises, "fault with them", "promises", "faulty", not God's everlasting "my Covenant" [1] which is eternal.​

Moses was the Mediator for the 'old covenant' [2], not for the original everlasting one [1], for that was in eternity past between the Father and the Son witnessed by the Holy Ghost.

You have a confusion when you read "covenant". Nowhere is it ever written that the Ten Commandments, the spiritual (Romans 7:14) Law of God is the 'old covenant', not even once. Are the Ten Commandments a covenant? Yes (Deut. 4:13, which were commanded to be "performed"), but they are not the 'old covenant' (Ex. 19:8), which was the agreement Israel the peoples made with God, with Moses as Mediator, for when God spake the Ten Commandments (3 days later) Moses was not Mediator for them. God Himself commanded directly to all present, including the 'mixed multitude' (Gentiles; Ex. 12:38), and those who were not of Israel, like Moses' wife, Zipporah (Ex. 2:21), and others.
 
Hi V-C, is it your contention that the Law, meaning the Laws of the Sinai covenant, have not passed away, that Jesus didn't fulfill those laws and they are binding on those God imposed them on?
It is the Bibles' (KJB), even Jesus' "contention" (as per the words of Jesus Himself, cited to you; Matt. 5:18) that not one single commandment in "the law" of the (Gen to Deut, later also included Deut to Mal) Bible, not the smallest letter (Jot; jod) or part of the smallest letter (tittle, tip of the Jod) is passed away. Everything is not fulfilled, and the present heaven (first) and earth are still here, and have not passed away either, for Peter makes clear when that takes place:

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.​

Peter is actually talking about two phases, [1] heavens pass away, Rev. 6:14 (beginninf of the final 1000 years); [2] earth passes away, Rev. 20 & 21 (ending of the final 1000 years).

The "Sinai Covenant" (old covenant, "If ... then ... and ...", "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do." (Ex. 19:8) is not "the law" (Gen to Deut, etc). A covenant is an agreement made between two or more 'parties' with promises involved.

Are God's Ten Commandments an Eternal Covenant? Yes. As already stated. Yet, look carefully, and you will see that each of those "commandments" therein are actually eternal Promises of God, which begins with Grace, and are being fulfilled in what is called the "New" Covenant (which is just the ratified Eternal Covenant, bythe blood and sacrifice of Jesus and by the Father afterward, texts already provided.)

Jeremiah says of these eternal Promises:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:​
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:​
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.​
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​

The "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers" is found in Exodus 19:5,8. "If ... then ... and ...", "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do."

Yet that is not the "my covenant" that already existed before their agreement with God about the "If ... then ... and" (which was never made with Abraham, etc). God's Ten Commandment Laws are all Eternal Promises that God Himself was to write in the heart (for the Heart/Mind is Two Hemispheres of the Brain (which when looking straight on, look like two tables of flesh, the fleshy heart).

Everywhere in Jeremiah, when he says for God, "my laws" it always refers to the Ten Commandments, and so likewise throughout scripture, see Moses:
Exo_16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.​
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?​
Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.​

The "my law", which is God's "my covenant", His Promises to usward, if we would live by faith is the Ten Commandments, for even Paul cites that the first commandment on the second table is a promise (Eph. 6:2; for they are all promises, for when indwelt by the Holy Ghost, we shall not steal, shall not commit adultery, shall honour father and mother, shall keep the sabbath, the 7th day holy, etc, etc). You are looking at the Ten Commandments from the wrong side. You need to read them as they begin - Grace.

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.​

The heart of it is Grace:

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.​
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.​
They can only be kept by God's Grace, provided in His Son Jesus Christ, by and through the Holy Ghost indwelling, having written His eternal Character (Exodus 33:12-23; 34:1-9, 20:5-7) upon the fleshy heart, which will remain alive, and not turned to stone (hardened in rebellion and sin (transgression of the Law).
 

ontheBeam

Member
It is the Bibles' (KJB), even Jesus' "contention" (as per the words of Jesus Himself, cited to you; Matt. 5:18) that not one single commandment in "the law" of the (Gen to Deut, later also included Deut to Mal) Bible, not the smallest letter (Jot; jod) or part of the smallest letter (tittle, tip of the Jod) is passed away. Everything is not fulfilled, and the present heaven (first) and earth are still here, and have not passed away either, for Peter makes clear when that takes place:
Do you realize what you just wrote? Not one jot has passed from the Law. Not one jot from the laws of the Sinai covenant has passed. If you are a man and the laws of the covenant are still to be required then you must identify yourself not only with circumcision, but also by not cutting your sideburns. That commandment came out of the mouth of GOD. Is what coming out of the mouth any less sacred than what He wrote on the tablets? Even if you believe they are less, they are still God's commands. The sacrificial laws are still to be carried out. Oh, you will say, Jesus was the final sacrifice. It doesn't matter, not one jot because you believe not all has been fulfilled. What a conundrum your belief causes.

I presume you would take the same stance concerning the prophets. Jesus said He came to fulfill the prophets. He was referring to all the prophecies that were written about Him. Your belief is that He didn't even do that. Think about where you stand my friend. Jesus came to fulfill the Law. Jesus is God and He didn't just do some of what He said he came to do. The remainder of your post is not relevant because Jesus did do what He came to do. Yes, He is coming again, but that was not His intention the first time.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.​
You chastised me for only quoting part of Ellen's thoughts yet you neglected to tell us what "My commandments are that He wants us to keep. Had you read just a might further in Jn 15 you would have found the answer and not tried to trick us into believing He was referring to the ten commandments. Jn 15: 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant​

2Cor3:
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

How much plainer could Paul have written that we are not under the guidance of the ten commandments. The Holy Spirit given at Pentecost is our guide. The law that is written on our hearts is the Royal Law of Love, not a bunch of rituals from the now defunct Sinai covenant.
 
Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

EX.4:22
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Yes. Israel in that sentence is actually Jesus. His people (Moses, etal) were part of his many children.

Jesus is the "firstborn":

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

[1] Jesus is the “firstborn”, being the preeminent one:

Romans 9:5 - Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​
Colossians 1:16 - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:​
Colossians 2:10 - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:​
Ephesians 1:21 - Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:​
Ephesians 1:22 - And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,​
Ephesians 1:23 - Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.​
Ephesians 3:9 - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:​
Ephesians 4:15 - But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:​
Hebrews 7:26 - For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;​
John 1:3 - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

[2] Jesus is also the “firstborn” of the Woman/Church:

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.​
Luke 2:11 - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.​
Hebrews 2:10 - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.​
Revelation 12:1 - And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:​
Revelation 12:2 - And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.​
Revelation 12:3 - And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.​
Revelation 12:4 - And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.​
Revelation 12:5 - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.​
Revelation 12:13 - And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
 
Do you realize what you just wrote? Not one jot has passed from the Law. Not one jot from the laws of the Sinai covenant has passed. If you are a man and the laws of the covenant are still to be required then you must identify yourself not only with circumcision, but also by not cutting your sideburns.
Yes. I realize (know fully) what I wrote. Not one jot has passed from all the law of God, those at and after Sinai included. Notice, I didn't say that the old covenant was required. I stated the laws still exist. I also stated that something is different in the new covenant. Natural to spiritual.

Circumcision still applies:

Deu_10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deu_30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Jer_4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Rom_2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

For instance:

Lev_21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.​

This law still exists. It will be executed even:
Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:​
Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.​

For that false system claims to be a daughter of the High Priest Jesus.

Another example:
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.​
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.​

This law still exists and to be kept, yet notice:
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?​
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:​
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.​
Thus what Jesus said was/is true, even now.

Even the Stone the Sabbath breaker still applies, and you can read that for yourself, here - https://archive.org/download/sticks-stones-do-you-stone-the-sabbath-breaker/Sticks & Stones - Do You Stone The Sabbath Breaker.pptx

If you do not like to read, I recommend considering this palagi


The Law of Tithe still applies, see Hebrews 7; 1 Corinthians 9 &c.

The Law of Clean/Unclean still apples, see Matthew 23; Luke 11; Acts 10, 15, Revelation 18, etc.

The spiritual Law of the Ten Commandments, still and always will, apply, see Romans 7:7; James 1-2; 1 John; Revelation 14, 22; &c.
 

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant​

2Cor3:
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

How much plainer could Paul have written that we are not under the guidance of the ten commandments
You have a misunderstanding in what was 'done away' (vs 7). It was not the Law of God, the Ten Commandments and the glory thereof, but it was the glory of Moses face. See the context, there are two glories spoken of:

[1] the glory of the law of God

[2] the glory of Moses face.

The [1] remains, and is more glorious in the "face" of Jesus Christ, as it needed no types anymore (law of sacrifices, etc), but found in Christ Jesus Himself, the actual sacrifice, and obeyed in His life, the Living eample of the Law of God obeyed/kept.


Look:

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.​
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:​
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?​
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.​
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.​

There are several things in 2 Corinthians 3.

[1] Law (doesn't change, stays, "remaineth")

[2] ministration (changes), how the Law is administered

[3] glories (differing glories)


The glory of the Law as seen in Moses face goes away

the glory of the Law in the life and face of Jesus Christ remaineth and is more glorious.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.​
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.​

[4] Mediator (differing mediators)

Moses ('old covenant'; Exodus 19:8

Jesus (eternal covenant; Malachi 2:5; Jeremiah 31; Hebrews 8, &c
[5] location (differing locations)

tables of stone

tables of the fleshy heart (the brain is two hemispheres, two tables)
[6] Holy Ghost (doesn't change)

The Law of God brings death, why?

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Jas_1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.​

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.​

Rom_7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.​

But it was ordained to Life, not death.

Through the Holy Ghost, who writes the "my (God's) law" upon the heart, the Law is able to be fulfilled in the life:

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​
But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: 2 Corinthians 3:7
What was the "glory" that was to be done away?

99.+% translations bear this out plainly (I found 'one obscure', but when studied says the same), for that is what the koine Greek shows. The masculine refers to Moses' face. Not the law. If you need me to cite the many translations on this (modern English), I can, even from the period of the reformation (Tyndale, Genevan, Matthews, Coverdale, Bishops, Great, etc) and before, even to Wyckliffe ("his cheer" [face]), and Latin ("vultus eius" (his face)), Luther's German, "auf seinem Angesicht" (his face), and to interlinears as necessary, etc.

Why? For a greater glory than the glory of Moses face, which was merely reflection of the Glory of God from the Law written in Stone, was to be seen directly in the face of Jesus Christ, God's glory and His Law directly seen in the Life lived perfectly, the Law as it is to be in the heart, from love to God, Divinity clothed in humanity, the likeness of sinful flesh, the same flesh we have, victorious over all temptation, condemned sin in the flesh...

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:6​

The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. Deuteronomy 5:3​

"this covenant" between Israel [the peoples] and God [which is the old covenant] is not the "my covenant" of God.
 
The Greater Glory of the New Covenant
2Cor3:
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

How much plainer could Paul have written that we are not under the guidance of the ten commandments. The Holy Spirit given at Pentecost is our guide. The law that is written on our hearts is the Royal Law of Love, not a bunch of rituals from the now defunct Sinai covenant.
Continued, 2 Corinthians 3, the "glory" that was "done away":

Notice Exodus 19:5, carefully please:

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: Exodus 19:5​

The "my covenant" of God is terms of the agreement that Israel [the peoples] agreede to obey in their [old] 'covenant' with God.

Israel [the peoples], agreed by their promises in covenant with God [which is the 'old covenant'], to keep God's 'my covenant' [a separate covenant which is always called God's 'my covenant']

Thus we see two different things called 'covenants'.
[1] God's 'my covenant' – faith​
[2] the agreement of Israel [the peoples] "all that the Lord hath said we will do" to God's "if...then..." – works​

The 'old covenant' agreement that Israel entered into was this, "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:"

God found fault with "them" [Hebrews 8:8] their "promises", and so He had better Promises than theirs...

The "My Covenant" and "His Covenant" of God is not the 'old covenant' that they entered into ["And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do." Exodus 19:8], but that which they were to keep in their covenant agreement with God. The other "My Covenant" of God existed far prior to Israel, which they had forgotten, which had already been given to Adam, To Noah, To Abraham, and also given to Moses, etc...

Scripture says, that God's "My Covenant" [the very Everlasting Gospel Covenant, wherein He would write His "My Law" within our hearts, for He says, "I will"...] it is eternal...
My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Psalms 89:4​
You are conflating the two things unnecessarily and without scriptural evidence to do so.

Nowhere in scripture will you find that God's 'my covenant' ever referred to as the old covenant, and never will you find in scripture that the old covenant = the Ten Commandments or 'my covenant' of God.

Please, if you will, research the words 'My covenant' or 'His Covenant' in scripture.

God never made the 'old covenant' [2] with anyone else before Israel [the peoples], and thus Deuteronomy 5:3 is perfect.

This 'old covenant' [Israels, all that the Lord hath said we will do, and God's if/then] This was made 3 days before they even heard aloud the Ten Commandments by the voice of God Himself from heaven. Those words were written down and sprinkled with blood later in Exodus 24, the "the book of the covenant" Ex 24:7 and "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words." Exodus 24:8

However, God's 'my covenant' existed before the old covenant that Israel [the peoples] made with God.

Therefore, I cannot agree with the position that the Ten Commandments "=" the Old Covenant. So while agreeing with the two texts, neither of them demonstrate that the "Ten Commandments" "=" "Old Covenant". So far, that is merely being asserted just by posting a text which neither of which say that the Ten Commandments "=" the Old Covenant. I hope that everyone may understand the position taken here.

[1] Romans 3:20 says: "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."​

What law is it referring to?

How do we have knowledge of sin?

How can this law, if it refers to the Ten Commandments "vanish away", and yet still be present so that "through the Law" "we become conscious of our sin"?
[2] Romans 3:31 says: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."​
What "law" is Paul referring to?

Is this law made "void" through faith or is this law "established" through faith?

What do the words "void" and "established" mean?

If the "law" spoken of by Paul is "established" through "faith", and not made "void", how then can anyone say that it is "vanished" away?

How long after the cross, roughly, was the statement made by Paul?

If we substitute the words "law" in both instances with the terms "old covenant" as such "Do we then make void the [old covenant] through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the [old covenant].", does the passage make any more sense, or is it now made void itself?

"...for the glory of his [masculine pronoun pointing back to the masculine proper Noun-Moses, not the feminine noun "ministration"] countenance...". It is speaking about that which was given by Moses, through a veil, even a covering, a shrouded mystery of types and shadows, speaking of the ceremonial law, handwritten by Moses. The type was glorious, even behind the veil, but it was only temporary, even as the reality [Jesus] of those shadows [ceremonies, sacrifices, etc] was far more glorious shedding His light upon the Ten Commandments, upholding them even unto Death, the Death of the cross.

The typological shed glory upon the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, but were temporary, while the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, as seen in the face of Christ Jesus is much more glorious, since Christ Jesus paid with His life to uphold, honour, and magnify them. The very context speaks of this which remaineth is far more glorious, even the Ten Commandments:

For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious. 2 Corinthians 3:11​
For it is obvious there were two major portions seen in the past, the one, the ceremonials/sacrifices/shadows/types under the veil of Moses, so to speak as Paul, which had a temporary glory pointing unto the sacredness of the Ten Commandments and of the Character of God in it, pointing to a yet future reality [Jesus]...

... and the latter, the Ten Commandments in Christ, blazing with the full light of the Gospel, which remains forever. See 2 Corinthians 4:4-6.
 
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What we are actually dealing with here, is the old error of the anti-nomian. There is a theology, prevalent today, which is anti-law (of God), even if it only be in "one point" (as James) would say. These modern anti-nomians, deny that they reject most of the Ten Commandments (saying that they do not teach to steal, kill, commit adultery, etc), but that is just the point indeed. "Most" is not the fullness thereof, thus "most" is sin (1 John 3:4), for first it is sin against God Himself and character, and then (thus "also") transgression against His stated law of governance. The very central law of the Ten Commandments is the Tithe/Firstfruits of it. For it reveals that all of our time/effort belong to God.
 

Johan

Well-known member
You have a misunderstanding in what was 'done away' (vs 7). It was not the Law of God, the Ten Commandments and the glory thereof, but it was the glory of Moses face.
You are seriously not suggesting that Paul is contrasting the glory of the New Covenant with the glory of Moses' face?

If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

The contrast made in this passage is between "the ministry of death" (ἡ διακονία τοῦ θανάτου), also called "the ministry of condemnation" (ἡ διακονία τῆς κατακρίσεως), and "the ministry of righteousness" (ἡ διακονία τῆς δικαιοσύνης). Both ministries came with glory, but the former is "that which is passing away" (τὸ καταργούμενον). So Paul is referring to the transition between the old and the new covenant. The Old Covenant is, rather harshly, called "the ministry of death" because "the law brings wrath" (Rom. 4:15) and the law brings about death (Rom. 7:13) to the sinner.
 
You are seriously not suggesting that Paul is contrasting the glory of the New Covenant with the glory of Moses' face?
See point: [2] ministration (changes), how the Law is administered.

Now, go back, and read of which "glory" was done away in the verse itself. I never said that the ministration didn't change. I said the Law itself didn't change. The glory of the Law shines even brighter in the face of Jesus Christ, than it did (past tense) in Moses' face.

You misunderstood what I said.
 
"the ministry of death" (ἡ διακονία τοῦ θανάτου), also called "the ministry of condemnation" (ἡ διακονία τῆς κατακρίσεως), and "the ministry of righteousness" (ἡ διακονία τῆς δικαιοσύνης)
Yes, the ministration changes, as I said.

Yet, notice, that the same Law, which was death before, being at that time external to the heart of mankind, because without God, no man could keep it. Yet, as God is with us (Emmanuel), we can (Php 4:13), and it becomes the law of life/liberty (Psa. 119:45; 2 Cor. 3:17; Jam. 1:25, 2:21), through Christ Jesus, as each of the Ten Commandments are the eternal promises of God in the New Covenant to us-ward, which is why they are in Hebrew called dabar.

Exo_34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deu_4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deu_10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

In each place the Hebrew word "[1697] dabar" is used, as the Ten Commandments are not merely laws or commands, but individual promises of God each that He would perform in those who would walk in His covenant.

In the face of Jesus Christ they shine all the bright, for by His life, shed blood and death, he "magnified the law" and made "it" (the Law) "Honourable" - Isaiah 42:21.

This is why Peter warned of the anti-nomians:

2Pe_2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

They spoke of being "free" of God's Law. Peter never said any such thing.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

What is the "holy Commandment" in God's Law? There are several things to discuss in 2 Peter, but, my question is being specific to this point.

Righteousness is right-doing, which God's law of Ten Commandments are that law:

Psa_119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

Isa_42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Isa_51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
 

ontheBeam

Member
Hi VC, I do believe you have a big problem. Never in the writings of the Apostles does it ever mention the ten commandments. You assume it does therefore you cannot accept 2Cor3: 6-11 as telling us the commands written on stone were the ministry of death and are no longer the guide for anyone. It is telling us that the Holy Spirit is more glorious than the commands written on stone and is our guide. In the KJV it even tells us the commands written on stone are done away. I have read many excuses trying to change the meaning of verses 6-11, but the fact remains that Paul makes it very clear the we are not under the ministry of death, the ten commandments. Now I would suppose that your answer would be that we are lawless because we have dismissed the commands written by God's own finger. (Are the words that came out of God's own mouth any less sacred that those written on stone? yet somehow you are able to dismiss most all of those.) Well, how about reading the following to see if we are really lawless. 1Jn 3: 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Of course, Jn was repeating Jesus own word in Jn 15:10-14 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

  1. 1 John 5:2
    By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

  2. 1 John 5:3
    For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
  3. Revelation 12:17
    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

  4. Revelation 14:12
    Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
There is no 10 before commandments and when Sabbatarians contend that the verses say the verses allude to them cannot be proven and the verses I provided prove they don't.
 

ontheBeam

Member
VC wrote:
The Law of Tithe still applies, see Hebrews 7; 1 Corinthians 9 &c.

The Law of Clean/Unclean still apples, see Matthew 23; Luke 11; Acts 10, 15, Revelation 18, etc.

The spiritual Law of the Ten Commandments, still and always will, apply, see Romans 7:7; James 1-2; 1 John; Revelation 14, 22; &c.
I see nothing in 1Cor 9 to indicate we are to pay a tithe. Likewise He 7 is not indicating that we pay a tithe. Abraham paid a tithe of the spoils of war to Melchisedec. It never indicated that he ever paid a tithe on his livestock or crops. Are you aware that the law only required the Israelites who raised crops and or livestock to pay tithe with one exception, the Levites paid a tithe of the tithe received to the poor. The tent maker, candlemaker and anyone else that didn't raise crops or livestock were not under the tithing law. Another fact, the tithe that was paid was never in shekels. The took the crops and livestock to the Levites. You want to "keep the Tithing laws that God set forth then pay attention to the how and who. You have allowed some misguided church to convince you that God is requiring you to pay a tithe or you will not receive your eternal reward.

As to the clean and unclean, it was not until God gave Israel the Law that those demands were required. Noah was told by God that he could eat anything he wanted to eat. He was not under the Sinai covenant and neither are we today. Eating pork will not keep us out of the New Earth. I will agree it is not the best nourishment and I don't eat it.

Please explain spiritual law of the ten commandments?
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
What we are actually dealing with here, is the old error of the anti-nomian. There is a theology, prevalent today, which is anti-law (of God), even if it only be in "one point" (as James) would say. These modern anti-nomians, deny that they reject most of the Ten Commandments (saying that they do not teach to steal, kill, commit adultery, etc), but that is just the point indeed. "Most" is not the fullness thereof, thus "most" is sin (1 John 3:4), for first it is sin against God Himself and character, and then (thus "also") transgression against His stated law of governance. The very central law of the Ten Commandments is the Tithe/Firstfruits of it. For it reveals that all of our time/effort belong to God.
and they had stones in their pockets to stone Moses at the 1st opportunity
amazing, wandering in the wilderness, their very lives depended Moses
stone Moses and they perished,
---- But ---
Stone him, stone him, Stone him

today most Protestant Preachers can't get 1 sermon in, with out tossing a few Stones at Moses
:rolleyes:
 
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