Tertullian in Against Praxeas 25.1 - "three are one", are his Holy Spirit references about Montanus and prophecy?

Steven Avery said:
The only writer really hostile to Melito that I have seen on this thread is Robert L:awrence Ottley (1856-1933), and I did not post his stuff.
Howevber, I did point out some dubious statements from Ottley.

Like I said, I see "naive modalism" as more irony than criticism.

And I tend to like the idea of doxologies to Christ.
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Melito didn't quote the Comma Johanneum.

Tertullian is thought by some to have quoted either of the disputed Latin Clause-D's "tres unum sunt", which is identical in both verses 7 and 8 in the Latin Comma-inclusive manuscripts.

But it is also thought by some that Tertullian's "qui tres unum sunt" (or "qui tres sint" variant text), which is still identical in both verses 7 and 8 in the Latin Comma-inclusive manuscripts, is simply his personal eis-egetical comments/phraseology derived from John 10:30 and applied to his personal theological concept of one shared substance and three Latin "personae" (compare Hebrews 9:24 τῷ προσώπῳ τοῦ θεοῦ and the Vetus Latina/Old Itala text "persona" or "personae", Sabatia 1571).
 
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Yahchristian said:
Can you please post one of Melito's statements that you disagree with?
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Lines 8-10
"For born as a Son, led forth as a lamb, sacrificed as a sheep, buried as a man, he rose from he dead as God, being by nature God and man. Who is all things: in that he judges, Law, in that he teaches, Word, in that he saves, Grace, in that he begets, Father, in that he is begotten, Son, in that he suffers, a sacrificial sheep, in that he is buried, Man, in that he arises, God. This is Jesus the Christ, to whom belongs the glory to the ages of ages, Amen."

( I would classify it as quite puerile, but also wrong. You have to ask yourself, why is this stuff being written? Also, how about adding, "....in that he is innocent, a dove, in that he is wise, an elephant, in that he is stays awake at night and prays, a night owl...?)
 
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TwoNoteableCorruptions said:
Melito didn't quote the Comma Johanneum.
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Good point. If the Comma has been in the Greek NT, then the "naive modalism" of Melito etc wouldn't have arisen (presumably) . However it cannot be guranteed, because these modalists were very devious and cunning (by repute). I'm not quite sure that Tertullian's argument does rebut modalism sufficiently. I think, perhaps, it doesn't.
 
cjab said:
Good point. If the Comma has been in the Greek NT, then the "naive modalism" of Melito etc wouldn't have arisen (presumably) . However it cannot be guranteed, because these modalists were very devious and cunning (by repute)
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Astute oneness believers today seem to be comfortable with the heavenly witnesses verse.
 
cjab said:
Quite sufficient to get you labelled a heretic.
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Are you saying you disagree with ALL you quoted?

So you disagree with the highlighted text below?

"For born as a Son, led forth as a lamb, sacrificed as a sheep, buried as a man, he rose from he dead as God, being by nature God and man. Who is all things: in that he judges, Law, in that he teaches, Word, in that he saves, Grace, in that he begets, Father, in that he is begotten, Son, in that he suffers, a sacrificial sheep, in that he is buried, Man, in that he arises, God. This is Jesus the Christ, to whom belongs the glory to the ages of ages, Amen."
 
Yahchristian said:
Are you saying you disagree with ALL you quoted?

So you disagree with the highlighted text below?

"For born as a Son, led forth as a lamb, sacrificed as a sheep, buried as a man, he rose from he dead as God, being by nature God and man. Who is all things: in that he judges, Law, in that he teaches, Word, in that he saves, Grace, in that he begets, Father, in that he is begotten, Son, in that he suffers, a sacrificial sheep, in that he is buried, Man, in that he arises, God. This is Jesus the Christ, to whom belongs the glory to the ages of ages, Amen."
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"Nature" is here used to contrast divinity (= God) and humanity. This is a gnostic usage, because in the ordinary sense, "divine nature" is not incompatible with being a man, as the votaries of the hypostatic union infer, cf. 2 Pet 1:4. Yet here Melito has elevated "divine nature" into the status of "being God" which is wrong. For God possesses much more than "nature" (i.e. also the glory and power of God which Jesus clearly lacked). So Melito is conferring a gnostic element on the simple word, "nature," comparable to Tertullian's usage of "substance," in order to equate Jesus with his Father suggestive of a docetic (Jesus's body possessing "celestial substance") creed. Anything which detracts from Jesus being a man is heresy.

One must classify Melito as a philosopher in a similar way to Tertullian: both sought to use obscure and novel concepts in relation to the divine.

Both end up confounding the persons of the Father and the Son in a synthetic way (philosophers are seen as antithetic to Christianity - 1 Cor 1:20) and as derogating from the humanity of Christ by introducing quasi-docetic concepts. The apostles saw no need to derogate from Christ's humanity.

Prov 30:5,6 "Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to his words or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar."
 
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cjab said:
Both end up confounding the persons of the Father and the Son in a synthetic way
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Afaik, Melito does not talk of the "persons of the Father and the Son". You might believe in two or three persons, but this is not the view expressed by Melito.

How many "persons" do you insist upon?
 
TwoNoteableCorruptions said:
Doesn't move the dial on Tertullian having separated from Christianity and him having cut off all association with the Christian congregation when he wrote Adversus Praxeas, or on his phrase "tres unum sunt".
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My post showing how the three references of Tertullian and Cyprian are conjoined, all from the same source, trumps this concern easily.
 
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