Tetragram - Jehovah! or Yahweh (Jupiter)

Steven Avery

Well-known member
your blasphemy towards the name of God that I don't even want to repeat here.

Responding to this cryptic attack will open up an interesting discussion.
We had wonderful studies with the poster from Israel, Jameson, on the earlier CARM.

The first question is simple. Jehovah (or Yehovah) or Yahweh.
One is right, one is a counterfeit.

Brian felt that my rejection of Yahweh as a pagan deity (Yahweh=Jupiter) would be blasphemy :).
The King James Bible has the proper Jehovah, in the Reformation tradition.

Nehemia Gordon has added a lot to this discussion the last two decades. In the earlier discussions Jameson and Nehemia were interacting, as I passed some issues back and forth.

A very fun-damental question.

Yours in Jesus name,
Steven
 
One is right, one is a counterfeit.

Brian felt that my rejection of Yahweh as a pagan deity (Yahweh=Jupiter) would be blasphemy :).
First, I know nothing of this topic.

Second, I think the way it has been introduced is inelegant.

Seems to me from this questionable WWW site, but especially from the less questionable comments section, that the "Yahweh" pronunciation is favored by the Greeks, "Yehoveh" pronunciation by the Jews.

Either way, the topic relates to the science of pronunciation, or Orthoepy. "The term is from the Greek ὀρθοέπεια, from ὀρθός orthos ("correct") and ἔπος epos ("speech"). The antonym is cacoepy "bad or wrong pronunciation"". (Wiki)

So the opposite of correct pronunciation is not "counterfeit pronunciation" but cacophonic pronounciation.

Or are you imputing the counterfeit is in the YHWH/YHVH distinction alone?

Stephen suggests: cacophonic pronounciation of YHWH/YHVH invokes a pagan deity? It's up to Stephen to prove this (nothing is assumed).
Also: such a sentiment can be misinterpreted as a prohibition on invoking Yahweh at all, if Yahweh is what one believes the pronunciation to be. That also needs to be justified.

Another thing: Jesus didn't teach us to pray to YHWH/YHVH but to the Father, so why does it matter?:unsure:
 
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Greetings Steven Avery,
The first question is simple. Jehovah (or Yehovah) or Yahweh. One is right, one is a counterfeit.
I prefer Yahweh mainly on the basis that Jehovah is incorrect. The main two renditions of YHWH in the KJV "the LORD" and "GOD" are based upon the YHWH Name having two different sets of vowel points in the Hebrew, and the incorrect form Jehovah is incorrectly based upon only one of these.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Responding to this cryptic attack will open up an interesting discussion.
We had wonderful studies with the poster from Israel, Jameson, on the earlier CARM.

The first question is simple. Jehovah (or Yehovah) or Yahweh.
One is right, one is a counterfeit.

Brian felt that my rejection of Yahweh as a pagan deity (Yahweh=Jupiter) would be blasphemy :).
The King James Bible has the proper Jehovah, in the Reformation tradition.

Nehemia Gordon has added a lot to this discussion the last two decades. In the earlier discussions Jameson and Nehemia were interacting, as I passed some issues back and forth.

A very fun-damental question.

Yours in Jesus name,
Steven
It sounds strange to hear someone claim Jehovah as proper when the hard "J" sound is not found in the Hebrew language, but always used as a term of derision, e.g. "Jezebel" derisively of Isabel, and "Jezreel" mocking or deriding Israel.

To then claim that it is proper to use the hard "J" when referring to God or Jeezus undoubtedly brings a smile to Satan's face.
 
Greetings Steven Avery,
I prefer Yahweh mainly on the basis that Jehovah is incorrect. The main two renditions of YHWH in the KJV "the LORD" and "GOD" are based upon the YHWH Name having two different sets of vowel points in the Hebrew, and the incorrect form Jehovah is incorrectly based upon only one of these.
Kind regards
Trevor

I believe GOD is used when the Tetragram is next to Adonai. This avoids LORD Lord.

The AV uses Jehovah seven times, including some compound names.
 
It sounds strange to hear someone claim Jehovah as proper when the hard "J" sound is not found in the Hebrew language, but always used as a term of derision, e.g. "Jezebel" derisively of Isabel, and "Jezreel" mocking or deriding Israel.

There are about 20 Theophoric names that begin with Jeho-. They are not a term of derision.
 
First, I know nothing of this topic.

Second, I think the way it has been introduced is inelegant.

Just wanted to keep it simple and give people space to express their views.

Seems to me from this questionable WWW site, but especially from the less questionable comments section, that the "Yahweh" pronunciation is favored by the Greeks, "Yehoveh" pronunciation by the Jews.
https://yrm.org/yehovah-deception/

There are a number of Yahweh pushers, often Sacred Name groups like YRM, 119 Ministries, and various Yahweh assemblies. It is true that the Hebrew tradition, including Jewish writers and rabbis, have never embaced Yahweh and often have supported Jehovah, although often in the backdrop of their writings.

So the opposite of correct pronunciation is not "counterfeit pronunciation" but cacophonic pronounciation.
Or are you imputing the counterfeit is in the YHWH/YHVH distinction alone?

The V/W distinction is relatively minor, although we prefer the V.

Calling it a counterfeit goes back to when Yahweh really got pushed by Gesenius and others in the 1800s.

Stephen suggests: cacophonic pronounciation of YHWH/YHVH invokes a pagan deity? It's up to Stephen to prove this (nothing is assumed).
Also: such a sentiment can be misinterpreted as a prohibition on invoking Yahweh at all, if Yahweh is what one believes the pronunciation to be. That also needs to be justified.
Another thing: Jesus didn't teach us to pray to YHWH/YHVH but to the Father, so why does it matter?:unsure:

The explanation of the Yahweh-Jupiter connection is dependent on the sound of the names being close to identical and spiritual entities being known by their name.

Jupiter is Jove-pater, father Jove, and Jove is exceedingly close to Yahweh.

There should not be a prohibition on the correct pronunciation of the Tetragram, YHVH or JHVH, which is Jehovah/Yehovah, however there is not a New Testament sanction for going overboard. Especially not in the pagan attempt, but even in the true usage.
 
There are about 20 Theophoric names that begin with Jeho-.
No. There aren't. In fact, there is no such hard "J" sound in Hebrew. It is always and everywhere used as a term of derision. I provided you with examples for your edification. Perhaps you'd care to address them.
They are not a term of derision.
They most certainly are. When God derides Israel for being fat, stupid and lazy, he refers to them as "Jezreel" This whole fallen world derisively refers to the city God founded, i.e. "from Hebrew Yerushalayim, literally "foundation of peace," from base of yarah "he threw, cast" + shalom "peace." with a hard J.

Again, Satan couldn't be more pleased with the derisive pronunciation of God's name, Christ's name and the name of the Holy City.
 
No. There aren't. In fact, there is no such hard "J" sound in Hebrew. It is always and everywhere used as a term of derision. I provided you with examples for your edification. Perhaps you'd care to address them.

The fact that a couple of the J sound names (not theophoric names) are people in rebellion is not a real argument to be addressed.

There are about two dozen names that being with Jeho- (or Yeho- if you prefer.) In Hebrew they have the same starting letters and vowels as Jehovah (Yehovah).

If you repeat an irrelevant argument attempt, I will just let it pass.
 
Greetings again Steven Avery,
I believe GOD is used when the Tetragram is next to Adonai. This avoids LORD Lord. The AV uses Jehovah seven times, including some compound names.
I was referring to the two different sets of vowel points of YHWH in the Hebrew text as an answer to the incorrect rendition "Jehovah" based upon one of these sets of vowel points. Refer Strong's Concordance that explains this distinction. The different vowel points was to avoid a Hebrew reader saying Adonai Adonai when reading Adonai Yahweh.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Steven Avery,
I was referring to the two different sets of vowel points of YHWH in the Hebrew text as an answer to the incorrect rendition "Jehovah" based upon one of these sets of vowel points. Refer Strong's Concordance that explains this distinction. The different vowel points was to avoid a Hebrew reader saying Adonai Adonai when reading Adonai Yahweh.
Kind regards
Trevor
The truth of Jehovah is not contradicted by the vowel point theories of qere/ketiv. A good starting point is how 20 theophoric names begin with the same Jeho- as Jehovah.
 
Greetings again Steven Avery,
The truth of Jehovah is not contradicted by the vowel point theories of qere/ketiv.
This thread seems to be going in the same direction as your other similar thread. I will post again what I stated there, as you have either not understood what I stated, or simply ignored what I stated there.

The Hebrew reader would see the Memorial Name YHWH, but with the vowel points of either Adonai or Elohim added. This was a prompt for them to not state the YHWH Name, but to say Adonai or Elohim.

The following is from my Enhanced Strong's:
3068 יהוה, יְהוִה [Yâhovah /yeh·ho·vaw/] n pr dei. From 1961; TWOT 484a; GK 3378; 6519 occurrences; AV translates as “LORD” 6510 times, “GOD” four times, “JEHOVAH” four times, and “variant” once. 1 the proper name of the one true God. 1A unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136. Additional Information: Jehovah = “the existing One”.

3069 יהוה, יְהוִה [Yâhovih /yeh·ho·vee/] n pr dei. A variation of 3068 [used after 136, and pronounced by Jews as 430, in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce 3068 as 136]; GK 3378; 305 occurrences; AV translates as “GOD” 304 times, and “LORD” once. 1 Jehovah—used primarily in the combination ‘Lord Jehovah’. 1A equal to 03068 but pointed with the vowels of 0430.

The KJV translators followed this convention on most occasions, and the following shows where they have translated YHWH as LORD, and the other less common occurrence where they have translated YHWH as GOD:
Isaiah 50:10–11 (KJV): 10 Who is among you that feareth the LORD (H3068), that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD (H3068), and stay upon his God. 11 Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

Isaiah 50:4–9 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD (H3069) hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD (H3069) hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD (H3069) will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord GOD (H3069) will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.


Kind regards
Trevor
 
You have not discussed the 20 theophoric names that begin with the same Jeho- as Jehovah.

You have not explained where you found Yahweh.
 
Greetings again Steven Avery,
You have not explained where you found Yahweh.
I am not a Hebrew scholar, but it has been stated that many Hebrew scholars suggest that Yahweh is close to the correct rendition of YHWH. I will repeat the quotation that I added to your similar thread taken from the JW literature on this subject and I will highlight the suggestion in the article that "Yahweh" is preferred by most scholars:

I was interested in reading the extensive article “Jehovah” pages 882-895 in the JW Book Aid to Bible Understanding. The following are a few excerpts that I found to be relevant to the subject of this thread and relevant to some of the things that have been discussed.

Page 882: “Jehovah” is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name, but “Yahweh” is preferred by most scholars.

Page 884: The time did come, however, when in reading the Hebrew Scriptures in the original language, the Jewish reader substituted either ‘Adho-nay’ (Lord) or ‘Elo-him’ (God) rather than pronounce the divine name represented by the Tetragrammaton. This is seen from the fact that when vowel pointing came into use in the second half of the first millennium C.E. the Jewish copyists inserted the vowel points for either ‘Adho-nay’ or ‘Elo-him’ into the Tetragrammaton, evidently to warn the reader to say those words in place of pronouncing the divine name.

Pages 884-885: The pronunciations “Jehovah” and “Yahweh”: By combining the vowel signs of ‘Adho-nay’ and ‘Elo-him’ with the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton the pronunciations ‘Yeho-wah’ and ‘Yeho-wih’ were formed. The first of these provided the basis for the Latinised form “Jehova(h)”. The first recorded use of this form dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican Order, used it in his book Pugco Fidei of the year 1270. Hebrew scholars generally favour “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation.

Page 888:
Moses raised the question: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they do say to me ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” … Moses’ question was a meaningful one. God’s reply in Hebrew was “’Eh-yeh’ asher eh-yeh’.” While some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM,” the Hebrew verb (ha-yah’) from which the word ‘eh-yeh’ is drawn does not mean simply to exist. Rather, it means to come into existence, to happen, occur, become, take on (an attribute), enter upon (a state), or constitute. Thus, the footnote of the Revised Standard Version gives as one reading “I Will Be What I Will Be”.

I do not endorse all that is stated in this JW article, but I consider that the above is correct. Despite the above clear exposition, there are some JWs who still insist that Jehovah is the correct translation. Another useful reference is Rotherham's introduction in his Bible Translation where he dismisses the translation "Jehovah" and explains why he uses "Yahweh" in his translation of YHWH in the OT.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Just to be clear, the Jehovah Witness organization is quite mediocre on this issue.

Just referencing that some stale scholarship has supported Yahweh since the late 1800s really does not add much to the discussion.

Why not take one issue, the theophoric names, and try to understand.
 
Greetings again Steven Avery,
Just to be clear, the Jehovah Witness organization is quite mediocre on this issue.
Actually they extensively use and advocate the use of Jehovah these days in their literature and almost boast that they must be the latter day representatives of the true believers because of their use of Jehovah. Their article that I quoted does not now appear in their current literature, and I assume it is against their current usage and advocacy of Jehovah and thus is an embarrassment of their position and the fact that they call their Organisation "Jehovah Witnesses".
Just referencing that some stale scholarship has supported Yahweh since the late 1800s really does not add much to the discussion.
Yes, it has been established from the 1800s and endorsed by modern scholars. For example, I have on my desk Alec Motyers' translations of The Psalms and Isaiah and he advocates and uses Yahweh. He was a lecturer in Hebrew for many years.
Why not take one issue, the theophoric names, and try to understand.
Why not try to understand how the incorrect form "Jehovah" occurred. I did not highlight the portion of the above article, but I will repeat it here and highlight the relevant portion.
The first recorded use of this form dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican Order, used it in his book Pugco Fidei of the year 1270.

I thought that my Enhanced Strong's could have been different to Strong's so I checked my print copy and this also has the following:
3069 A variation of 3068 [used after 136, and pronounced by Jews as 430, in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce 3068 as 136].

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Steven Avery,

Actually they extensively use and advocate the use of Jehovah these days in their literature and almost boast that they must be the latter day representatives of the true believers because of their use of Jehovah. Their article that I quoted does not now appear in their current literature, and I assume it is against their current usage and advocacy of Jehovah and thus is an embarrassment of their position and the fact that they call their Organisation "Jehovah Witnesses".

Unfortunately, as a Christian apologist to the Jehovah's Witnesses, your opposition to the name of Jehovah is largely based on the genetic fallacy. Since the Jehovah Witnesses support the name of Jehovah, you will not really learn the topic, but you will oppose the name of Jehovah.

Why not try to understand how the incorrect form "Jehovah" occurred

And I am very aware of the debates over the centuries. e.g. Around 1700 there was an amazing set of dissertations published. And there has been wonderful writings in the last decades. You are just looking for stale scholarship where you ignore the main issues.

And I actually was on the periphery of the Sacred Name movement for some years in the 1990s, visiting the fellowships, reading the literature. so I got very familiar with their arguments.

Yes, it has been established from the 1800s and endorsed by modern scholars. For example, I have on my desk Alec Motyers' translations of The Psalms and Isaiah and he advocates and uses Yahweh. He was a lecturer in Hebrew for many years.

Not really much of a Hebraic source. He wrote when the Gesenius blunder was just getting popular.
What does he tell you about the theophoric names?
Does he mention all the Jewish-Rabbinical sources that support Jehovah?
 
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Greetings again Steven Avery,
Unfortunately, as a Christian apologist to the Jehovah's Witnesses, your opposition to the name of Jehovah is largely based on the genetic fallacy. Since the Jehovah Witnesses support the name of Jehovah, you will not really learn the topic, but you will oppose the name of Jehovah.
I am not sure what you are exactly saying here. I endorse any particular JW teaching when I agree with it, and I will disagree if I do not accept a particular concept that they teach. You would need to elaborate what you call "the genetic fallacy". As far as I am concerned i have learnt some aspects of "the topic", but have come to a different conclusion to both you and the JWs on the use and advocacy of "Jehovah".
You are just looking for stale scholarship where you ignore the main issues.
If and when you reply and answer this "stale scholarship" then I may progress to a better understanding of this subject.
Not really much of a Hebraic source. He wrote when the Gesenius blunder was just getting popular.
What year are you suggesting? His Isaiah translation was published in 2011 and his Psalms translation was published in 2016. If you want to elaborate on the "Gesenius blunder" and the "theophonic names" you are welcome, but until you do, this again seems to be claiming that you have a thorough understanding of the whole subject, even though I suspect that you do not want to really answer the "stale scholarship". I consider that this "stale scholarship" contradicts your position and arguments.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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