The abomination of desolation

Joe

Active member
Matthew 24 and Luke 21 both give us details of the same conversation Jesus had with His disciples about the destruction of the temple and the end of the Hebrew dispensation. It was not directed towards us in the future. It was directed at the Jews of their day and was consummated when the Roman army completely destroyed Jerusalem.

Both Matthew and Luke document the beginning of the conversation.

"Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Mat 24:1-3)

"And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, “As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” And they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?” (Luk 21:5-7)


As the conversation continues, Jesus mentions the abomination that causes desolation and both Matthew and Luke document that statement.

“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak." (Mat 24:15-18)

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written." (Luk 21:20-22)

We understand the abomination that causes desolation is the Roman army that did, in accordance to prophecy and Jesus' word, desolate Jerusalem. We also understand that even though Luke documented differently than Matthew, they were both talking about the same conversation and event. Luke wrote, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies". Matthew wrote, "when you see the abomination of desolation...standing in the holy place"


Jesus mentioned, "the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel."

There are two direct mentions of the abomination of desolation in Daniel (Dan 11:31, Dan 12:11), and one indirect by saying on the wings of abominations shall be one who desolates (Dan 9:27).

The mentioning in Dan 11:31 is not in correlation with what Jesus stated. It is when Antiochus IV Epiphanes after his campaign against Egypt was returning to Syria heard the Jews were celebrating a rumor that he had died, so in rage he enters Jerusalem, killing 80,000 taking others as slaves, and desecrates the temple.

The other two mentions of the abomination of desolation in Daniel are in correlation with what Jesus stated.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
(Dan 9:27)

And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.
(Dan 12:11)

All of the prophecies from Daniel about the abomination of desolation has already taken place. Daniel 9:27 is about the Jewish people and Jerusalem during the time of the Anointed One-Jesus Christ, and Daniel 12:11 is also about the nation of Israel and the time of their latter days, which is from the time of Babylon to their destruction by the Romans in 70 AD. The two abominations of desolation are one and the same event.

As Jesus said about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, it was the "great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be."

God bless
 

Timtofly

Member
I blame Josephus.

There would probably be no issues if he had not documented both Antiochus Epiphanies and the destruction of the Temple. I guess there are also some non biblical "canon" that was rejected. Minus these we would be in the dark.

If God had given us a full disclosure in the NT which some claim was being written and distributed for many years even after 90AD, they would have included it in God's Word.

If one claims that Revelation does, where? John never mentions one word or symbolism of the Temple being destroyed. So it cannot be about the 1st century.

The NT is about Christ and the Holy Spirit teaching us/them. Hiding such an important event would seem out of character.
 

Joe

Active member
Please help me to understand what you're conveying. Your position is unclear to me.

God bless
 

Timtofly

Member
That was not my position on Revelation.

I was pointing out that if you did not know about Jerusalem and the temple in recorded history, about 70AD, you would never know about it just reading God's Word.

The Second Coming is still future and all that applies about the Second Coming is still future. Well, the Seals have started to be opened in the last year.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings Joe,
All of the prophecies from Daniel about the abomination of desolation has already taken place. Daniel 9:27 is about the Jewish people and Jerusalem during the time of the Anointed One-Jesus Christ, and Daniel 12:11 is also about the nation of Israel and the time of their latter days, which is from the time of Babylon to their destruction by the Romans in 70 AD. The two abominations of desolation are one and the same event.
My impression is that the abomination of desolation mentioned in Daniel 12:11 is different to that mentioned in Daniel 9:27.

Also I do not know whether you consider that Daniel 8 is also speaking about the abomination of desolation:
Daniel 8:11–14 (KJV): 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Jesus seems to be alluding to the above in the following:
Luke 21:20–24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
I understand the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 to be from BC 334-333 the overthrow of the Persian Ram by the Grecian Goat, until AD 1967 the Six Day War, when the Jews regained control of Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
Matthew 24 and Luke 21 both give us details of the same conversation Jesus had with His disciples about the destruction of the temple and the end of the Hebrew dispensation.
Right from the first sentence you're getting it wrong, in my opinion. :D These are two different conversations of Jesus; the one in Luke appears to have been given publicly in Jerusalem during the day, whereas the discourse recorded in Matthew (and Mark) was given privately to His disciples in the evening on the Mount of Olives.

Furthermore, Luke's discourse does not mention the abomination of desolation. Matthew and Mark's discourse record Jesus giving the "abomination of desolation" as the definitive sign that the end is near; in Luke, Jesus says that the definitive sign is when they would see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. These are two different signs that mark the coming of two different events.

Take note of Luke 21:24 - "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD would mark the beginning of the times of the Gentiles, and the return of Christ does not return until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled according to the following verses. So even Luke's discourse records events well into the future beyond 70 AD. One could make a case that the "times of the Gentiles" ended during the Six-Day War when Israel took the city of Jerusalem back; but I don't see how any other event in history could reasonably be construed as marking an end to Jerusalem being "trampled by Gentiles." Maybe the Six-Day War doesn't even mark the end of it, since the Dome of the Rock is still on the temple mount.

As for the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel; this is almost certainly a reference to what is described in Revelation 13, in which an image of the beast is given life and can speak and kill everyone who will not worship it. The word "abomination" is a common word for an idol.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings squirrelyguy,
These are two different conversations of Jesus; the one in Luke appears to have been given publicly in Jerusalem during the day, whereas the discourse recorded in Matthew (and Mark) was given privately to His disciples in the evening on the Mount of Olives.
I suggest that Matthew, Mark and Luke are a record of the same discourse. Each are only a partial summary of all that was said, and hence they need to be compared to gather a fuller picture of some of the detail.

Furthermore, Luke's discourse does not mention the abomination of desolation. Matthew and Mark's discourse record Jesus giving the "abomination of desolation" as the definitive sign that the end is near; in Luke, Jesus says that the definitive sign is when they would see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. These are two different signs that mark the coming of two different events.
This is simply two different ways of saying the same thing. The army was an abomination, and the army was going to make Jerusalem a desolation Luke 21:20.

So even Luke's discourse records events well into the future beyond 70 AD.
Yes, Luke speaks of a long period of time where Jerusalem would be trodden down by the Gentiles.

One could make a case that the "times of the Gentiles" ended during the Six-Day War when Israel took the city of Jerusalem back; but I don't see how any other event in history could reasonably be construed as marking an end to Jerusalem being "trampled by Gentiles."
I consider that the Six-Day War is significant as it corresponds to the fulfilment of a major aspect of the 2300 days of Daniel 8. The times of the Gentiles does not start in AD 70, but started with Babylon taking Jerusalem and will continue until Jesus overthrows the northern invader and establishes the Kingdom of God, when he comes to sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, 11:40-45, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21. The 2300 days marks out two milestones in a significantly larger period. Jesus alludes to both these periods in Luke 21.

As for the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel; this is almost certainly a reference to what is described in Revelation 13, in which an image of the beast is given life and can speak and kill everyone who will not worship it. The word "abomination" is a common word for an idol.
The latter-day abomination of desolation will be similar to AD 70, when the King of the North invades and takes Jerusalem. The difference will be that his success will be short-lived and Jesus will intervene and destroy his armies.

Kind regards Trevor
 

Tonyg

Member
Take note of Luke 21:24 - "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
I understand this simply to mean that Jerusalem would be trampled until it's trampling was complete. Until the armies (nations)have had their way with jerusalem. Until it's complete desolation.

This was reflected in Daniel 9 where it said, unto the end of the war, desolation's are determined.

Dan 9:26-27 KJV 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings Tonyg,
I understand this simply to mean that Jerusalem would be trampled until it's trampling was complete. Until the armies (nations)have had their way with jerusalem. Until it's complete desolation.
I appreciate your perspective, but I consider that it represents a long period of time, and that this was partially completed in AD 1967. We are waiting for another invasion by the King of the North, Ezekiel 38, Daniel 11:40-45.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Tonyg

Member
Greetings Tonyg,

I appreciate your perspective, but I consider that it represents a long period of time, and that this was partially completed in AD 1967. We are waiting for another invasion by the King of the North, Ezekiel 38, Daniel 11:40-45.

Kind regards
Trevor
Yep, I am not surprised that that is your understanding. It's commonly taught in churches and books etc
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
Greetings Tonyg,

I appreciate your perspective, but I consider that it represents a long period of time, and that this was partially completed in AD 1967. We are waiting for another invasion by the King of the North, Ezekiel 38, Daniel 11:40-45.

Kind regards
Trevor
Gog-Magog (Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20) is one of the most misunderstood prophecies in Scripture. Revelation 20 clearly places it at the end of the MK. Joel describes Gog-Magog from the perspective of Israel. Ezekiel describes Gog-Magog from the perspective of Gog, a pseudonym for Satan. Revelation 20 reveals the timing. Gog-Magog is the Day of the LORD. I am fully prepared to defend these assertions based upon Scripture in the original languages and interpreted literally. Scripture says what it means and means what it says.
 

Tonyg

Member
Revelation 20 clearly places it at the end of the MK
Revelation 20:3 indicates that it would occur a short season after the end of the millenniums. Milleniums is plural. so it depends on what a person understands the milleniums to refer to;. And then what one might think is being described as a short season.

Grace to you.
 
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TrevorL

Active member
Greetings Archycharlie,
I am fully prepared to defend these assertions based upon Scripture in the original languages and interpreted literally. Scripture says what it means and means what it says.
I am prepared to wait for your explanation, but in the meantime I will give my understanding.
Gog-Magog (Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20) is one of the most misunderstood prophecies in Scripture. Revelation 20 clearly places it at the end of the MK. Revelation 20 reveals the timing. Gog-Magog is the Day of the LORD.
Yes, I agree that Revelation 20:3 is at the end of the 1000 years, but I consider Ezekiel 38-39 is speaking events before the 1000 years. Ezekiel 38 describes an invasion from the north into the Land of Israel at a time soon after a significant number of the children of Israel have been regathered into the Land of Israel.
Ezekiel 38:8-12 (KJV): 8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. 9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. 10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: 11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
This corresponds to what has happened. The children of Israel have returned to the Land of Israel, and the State of Israel was proclaimed in 1948. They are there in unbelief that Jesus is the Messiah, and the events of Ezekiel 38-39 will bring about the conversion of a significant remnant.

Joel describes Gog-Magog from the perspective of Israel.
You mention Joel, and I parallel Joel 3 with the events of Ezekiel 38:
Joel 3:1-2 (KJV): 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
I equate the captivity of Judah with the events that led up to the proclamation of the State of Israel in 1948, and the captivity of Jerusalem to the recapture of Jerusalem in 1967.

Ezekiel describes Gog-Magog from the perspective of Gog, a pseudonym for Satan.
I consider that Gog is a human, the Prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. I identify this as the ruler of Russia, who will head up a confederacy of nations who invade Israel.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Tonyg

Member
Yes, I agree that Revelation 20:3 is at the end of the 1000 years, but I consider Ezekiel 38-39 is speaking events before the 1000 years.
Rev 20:7-8 KJV 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
 

Tonyg

Member
This corresponds to what has happened. The children of Israel have returned to the Land of Israel, and the State of Israel was proclaimed in 1948
It also corresponds to the reinhabitation of Israel after the destinations of 66 to 73 ad. The place is from which the reinhabitants came would have been the northern tribes and any returning Jews that were released from those areas. Or from Egypt.

The Sanhedrin had reformed and they appointed a man named Simon Barr Kosovo as the Messiah. He was also termed the star and scepter of Judah in connection with ballams prophecy.

By 130 ad Israel was reinhabited with cities in towns almost all of which were unwalled. I read that perhaps five had some defensive structures but I can't remember where I read it or if it was actually historically verified

So great was the inhabitation that as many or more Jews died in this second revolt as had done so in the first. But in this conflict perhaps 500,000 Romans also perished. From recollection, so don't quote me, but two legions were wiped out completely and other suffered great losses. Secular history points to this conflict in 1:32 to 1:35 ad as the distinguishing Mark between Christians and Jews. Christians had once again fled or refused to fight against the Romans as they entered the land.

The land of Israel belongs to the people of the seed of Abraham which as Paul explains in Galatians 3 and 4 is the seed of Christ or the receivers of Christ has God within them. Thus I believe Gog referred to this Simon bar Kosiba who had reinstated persecution against the Christians and declared against them.

When Ezekiel refers to, my people Israel; my people Israel since Christ has come must refer to the Israel of God as Paul calls them in Galatians 6, who are the sons of God like Israel through faith in Christ, not in denial of Christ.

Food for thought
 
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TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again Tonyg,
The land of Israel belongs to the people of the seed of Abraham which as Paul explains in Galatians 3 and 4 is the seed of Christ or the receivers of Christ has God within them. Thus I believe Gog referred to this Simon bar Kosiba who had reinstated persecution against the Christians and declared against them.
I agree that the inheritance of the Land is given to Abraham, Christ and the faithful Genesis 13:14-15, Galatians 3:16,26-29. But I consider that Ezekiel 38 is describing the present return of the Jews to the Land and events that will shortly occur in these "latter days". I also parallel Ezekiel 38 and Joel 3 with Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 11:40-45, Zechariah 14 and Revelation 16:12-16. All of these overlap each other in some particulars, and all are speaking about events surrounding the return of Jesus and the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
Revelation 20:3 indicates that it would occur a short season after the end of the millenniums. Milleniums is plural. so it depends on what a person understands the milleniums to refer to;. And then what one might think is being described as a short season.

Grace to you.
So which translation are you using that uses the term "millenniums" in Revelation 20:3 and which word in the Greek text is translated "millenniums", plural?
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
Greetings Archycharlie,

I am prepared to wait for your explanation, but in the meantime I will give my understanding.

Yes, I agree that Revelation 20:3 is at the end of the 1000 years, but I consider Ezekiel 38-39 is speaking events before the 1000 years. Ezekiel 38 describes an invasion from the north into the Land of Israel at a time soon after a significant number of the children of Israel have been regathered into the Land of Israel.
Ezekiel 38:8-12 (KJV): 8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. 9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. 10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: 11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
This corresponds to what has happened. The children of Israel have returned to the Land of Israel, and the State of Israel was proclaimed in 1948. They are there in unbelief that Jesus is the Messiah, and the events of Ezekiel 38-39 will bring about the conversion of a significant remnant.


You mention Joel, and I parallel Joel 3 with the events of Ezekiel 38:
Joel 3:1-2 (KJV): 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
I equate the captivity of Judah with the events that led up to the proclamation of the State of Israel in 1948, and the captivity of Jerusalem to the recapture of Jerusalem in 1967.


I consider that Gog is a human, the Prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. I identify this as the ruler of Russia, who will head up a confederacy of nations who invade Israel.

Kind regards
Trevor
You have told me nothing that I haven't heard or read time and again for over 40 years. And let me guess, you are parroting the views of your favorite prophecy "experts" rather than doing your own study of the text in the original languages interpreted literally as I have done over many years of study. There's NOTHING in the text of Ezekiel 38-39 describing this invasion that makes the remotest sense in terms of modern warfare. I am asserting that this is the Day of the LORD which occurs at the end of the MK. Do you dispute my assertion that the DOL is post millennial?
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again Archycharlie,
You have told me nothing that I haven't heard or read time and again for over 40 years. And let me guess, you are parroting the views of your favorite prophecy "experts" rather than doing your own study of the text in the original languages interpreted literally as I have done over many years of study.
I have personally and carefully considered the many prophecies over many years. I have considered what many exponents of these prophecies have stated and come to my own conclusions on these, accepting some aspects and rejecting other aspects of what they claim. No, I am not an expert on "original languages", but I have considered many exponents who do have this expertise.
There's NOTHING in the text of Ezekiel 38-39 describing this invasion that makes the remotest sense in terms of modern warfare.
Well, "modern warfare" or the terms used in Ezekiel 38-39 would be even less feasible at the end of the 1000 years. Ezekiel 38-39 do not in any way describe the Land and the people of Israel towards the end of the 1000 years. The Land will not be desolate during the 1000 years and the children of Israel will not have been recently regathered out of the nations.
I am asserting that this is the Day of the LORD which occurs at the end of the MK. Do you dispute my assertion that the DOL is post millennial?
Yes, a fair bit of assertion and bluff, but no real consideration of what Ezekiel 38-39 and other passages actually say and teach. Perhaps you could share other aspects of why you assert your conclusion. Are you a SDA and believe in the burning and the desolation of the earth for the 1000 years, and therefore you cannot accept the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years and events around the nation of Israel?.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Tonyg

Member
So which translation are you using that uses the term "millenniums" in Revelation 20:3 and which word in the Greek text is translated "millenniums", plural?
All uses in Revelation 20 are Greek 5507. Chilioi, In strongs it's noted as plural. Our word millennia.

Other places where Chiliad or chilias (5505) is used it's noted as a singular 1000, our word millenium.

I don't know of any translations that distinguish between the two but that doesn't mean that there isn't a distinction and a purpose for the different word usage
 
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