The adoption into Abraham's seed

You shouldn't let our credits get under your skin. Most of them don't even offer anything worth rebutting.
Credits? What "credits"?

But yes, we offer plenty worthy "rebutting", especially verses from the Bible that cannot be "rebutted." Problem is, Mormons cannot rebut the proper understanding of the word of God, when taken IN CONTEXT and when the entire Biblical witness is taken into account.
 
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You shouldn't let our credits get under your skin. Most of them don't even offer anything worth rebutting.
If Abraham had the same charges, commandments, statutes, and laws as we do why was he allowed to, not only marry Hager while married to Sarah (Genesis 16:3), but then divorce her, sending her away (Genesis 21:14), and marry Keturah (Genesis 25:1), while we are specifically charged that we are not to do that in Matthew 19:9? I think this makes it clear that Mormonism can not assume Abraham had the same charges, commandments, statutes, and laws as we do. This pretty much ruins Mormonism which depends so heavily on Abraham being under the same law as us. We see that he was not.
 
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If Abraham had the same charges, commandments, statutes, and laws as we do why was he allowed to, not only marry Hager while married to Sarah (Genesis 16:3), but then divorce her, sending her away (Genesis 21:14), and marry Keturah (Genesis 25:1), while we are specifically charged that we are not to do that in Matthew 19:9? I think this makes it clear that Mormonism can not assume Abraham had the same charges, commandments, statutes, and laws as we do. This pretty much ruins Mormonism which depends so heavily on Abraham being under the same law as us. We see that he was not.

@Richard7
@brotherofJared
@dberrie2020
 
It’s an opinion based on personal knowledge and a long line of mormon family polygamy. Women are coerced into believing they’re doing God’s will. But they’re not happy.
I wonder....if these Mormon men on here are married, what would they think if, had they lived in Smith's time, if he had declared that their god wanted him to marry their wives in a polyandrous relationship--for time, not just eternity? Would they meekly hand over their wives to Smith? Regardless of what their wives thought? Would they believe Smith, if he told them that it was a command to him from God?
 
I wonder....if these Mormon men on here are married, what would they think if, had they lived in Smith's time, if he had declared that their god wanted him to marry their wives in a polyandrous relationship--for time, not just eternity? Would they meekly hand over their wives to Smith? Regardless of what their wives thought? Would they believe Smith, if he told them that it was a command to him from God?
That question was asked here a while back. I remember at least one mormon said yes, he would do it. Can’t remember which one.
 
That question was asked here a while back. I remember at least one mormon said yes, he would do it. Can’t remember which one.
I remember that, too. I think I know who wrote that on here, but without proof, I won't mention his name. But I do remember reading it. It really saddened me that he would have done that. It is just so....shocking how blindly some would have followed Smith and his lies, without question.
 
Thank you for demonstrating this, Richard:



NO ONE on here stated that ALL problems and issues in marriage stem from polygamy.
Its true, any marriage whether a man and wife only or plural marriage has it's problems...and yes someone did make that a issue... go back and read the post....

Theo1689 said:
All you have to do is watch a few episodes of "Sister Wives" to see the in-fighting and the jealousy. It is reality TV designed to garner sympathy for those practising plural marriage, but IMO it backfired exponentially.
 
Come on, @Richard7 , tell me how divorcing a wife and marrying another wife is adultery, but marrying another wife while still married to the one you got now isn't.

You, too, @dberrie2020 and @brotherofJared . All I'm getting is crickets everytime I bring this up. Surely you have thought of a way around this.
 
Come on, @Richard7 , tell me how divorcing a wife and marrying another wife is adultery, but marrying another wife while still married to the one you got now isn't.

You, too, @dberrie2020 and @brotherofJared . All I'm getting is crickets everytime I bring this up. Surely you have thought of a way around this.
Abraham, Israel (Jacob) and many others in the Bible....argue against the word of God if you want....
 
Abraham, Israel (Jacob) and many others in the Bible....argue against the word of God if you want....
You might want to crack open a Bible for a change instead of running to Mormon sources. What did Jesus say?

“But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate” (Mark 10:6–9).

One flesh, not a threesome, foursome, or whatever "some" Joseph Smith dreamed of! Polygamy was a cultural practice found in the Old Testament, but when you come to the New Testament, Jesus clarified that the "two" would become "one." That's pretty clear. Joseph Smith was a licentious fraud, an ego-maniacal cult leader, and he began sleeping around (even with the wives of other Mormon men who were still living); he was his own "god," and created his own "morality," which was actually IMMORALITY, and many of the Mormon men lapped it up like hungry cats lap up milk.
 
Its true, any marriage whether a man and wife only or plural marriage has it's problems...and yes someone did make that a issue... go back and read the post....

Theo1689 said:
All you have to do is watch a few episodes of "Sister Wives" to see the in-fighting and the jealousy. It is reality TV designed to garner sympathy for those practising plural marriage, but IMO it backfired exponentially.
No one said all marriage problems are a result of polygamy. That’s another false accusation by you.
 
You, too, @dberrie2020 and @brotherofJared . All I'm getting is crickets everytime I bring this up. Surely you have thought of a way around this.
I think you're not paying attention. I've addressed this. How can it be adultery? Your really expect the father of the children of promise is an adulterer? If God ignored it then, then why should he pay attention to it now?

If you have questions about that, ask God. We're not in charge, he is and He commanded Joseph Smith to introduce and practice polygamy. Joseph isn't the first, he isn't the only, he is in a line of some very prominent prophets. We don't need to find ways to excuse it. God either changed his mind and decided it was wrong or there is a reason for it. It was codified in the law of Moses. Jesus' great great grandmother was a polygamist under that code. Jews could also take a wife of conquerered nations, there was no stipulation that the person taking such a woman to wife must be single. The house of Israel was polygamists. It was not the exception, it was the rule.

How are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob or Moses not adulterers? That's the question.
 
You might want to crack open a Bible for a change instead of running to Mormon sources. What did Jesus say?
LOL. What did Jesus say?
“But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate
That's about divorce, try again. There's nothing there about polygamy except your eisegesis.
One flesh, not a threesome, foursome
Hahahaha. Eisegesis. There's nothing there about threesome or foursomes and that isn't really what polygamy is about. 🙄 Only minds that run in the gutter would imagine that's the purpose.
Joseph Smith dreamed of
LOL. See? This is what our critics do. They're so smart they know what Joseph dreamed. Hahahah. Complete propaganda based on nothing but their imagination.
Polygamy was a cultural practice found in the Old Testament,
Not only found, codified. Abraham did it and God said that Abraham kept his law and his commandments. Was God lying?
but when you come to the New Testament, Jesus clarified that the "two" would become "one."
Jesus clarified no such thing. That's your imagination at work again. The passage is about divorce, not about polygamy. And again, moresomes are now what polygamy was about and it will never be about that. No one can have sex, as to being one with more that one other person. The extras would be just that, extra. No one can be one with her and her too. Do you understand human anatomy at all? Well, I guess that's not important. Where you're going anatomy will be a new thing.
Joseph Smith was a licentious fraud, an ego-maniacal cult leader, and he began sleeping around (even with the wives of other Mormon men who were still living); he was his own "god," and created his own "morality," which was actually IMMORALITY, and many of the Mormon men lapped it up like hungry cats lap up milk.
All false, opinionated, baseless, tripe. 🙄
 
I think you're not paying attention. I've addressed this. How can it be adultery? Your really expect the father of the children of promise is an adulterer? If God ignored it then, then why should he pay attention to it now?

If you have questions about that, ask God. We're not in charge, he is and He commanded Joseph Smith to introduce and practice polygamy. Joseph isn't the first, he isn't the only, he is in a line of some very prominent prophets. We don't need to find ways to excuse it. God either changed his mind and decided it was wrong or there is a reason for it. It was codified in the law of Moses. Jesus' great great grandmother was a polygamist under that code. Jews could also take a wife of conquerered nations, there was no stipulation that the person taking such a woman to wife must be single. The house of Israel was polygamists. It was not the exception, it was the rule.

How are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob or Moses not adulterers? That's the question.
Who was Jesus’ great great grandmother?
 
Abraham didn’t marry more than one woman at a time.
Yes, he did. :rolleyes:

Gen 16 "Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. He slept with Hagar, and she conceived."

That's a clear case of adultery if polygamy isn't God-sanctioned. Isn't that adultery? Aren't you straining at a gnat now? He was married to Sarai and had sex with Hagar. That's adultery, right?
 
Yes, he did. :rolleyes:

Gen 16 "Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. He slept with Hagar, and she conceived."

That's a clear case of adultery if polygamy isn't God-sanctioned. Isn't that adultery? Aren't you straining at a gnat now? He was married to Sarai and had sex with Hagar. That's adultery, right?
Mormons cling to that one phrase… “to be his wife.” Like your whole wretched polygamy doctrine hangs on that verse.

Where did God tell Abraham to marry Hagar. And where does it say they were married? He did marry another woman, but only after Sarah died.

“To be his wife” in this story meant to sleep with him and have his child. No one refers to Hagar as his wife, not God, not the angels. She’s always referred to as Sarah’s servant.

As far as adultery goes, that’s between Abraham and God. But that whole incident happened because neither of them had faith in God’s promises. It’s not justification for polygamy.
 
Yes, he did. :rolleyes:

Gen 16 "Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. He slept with Hagar, and she conceived."

That's a clear case of adultery if polygamy isn't God-sanctioned. Isn't that adultery? Aren't you straining at a gnat now? He was married to Sarai and had sex with Hagar. That's adultery, right?
We have discussed this before. Hagar was never Abe's wife. "To be his wife" just means Abe had sex with her. Nowhere before or after this is she referred to as Abe's wife. She is always Sarah's slave. Sarah pleaded with Abe to send the "bondswoman" away with her son. IF Hagar had truly been Abe's second wife in every sense of the word, she would have had no right to demand that Abe do that. But she was always under Sarah's authority, not Abraham's. Had Hagar truly been Abe's wife, she would have been under HIS authority, as wives are.

At any rate, can you show us where God commanded Abraham to have sex with Hagar, to produce a son? Oh, and while you are at it, can you show us FROM THE BIBLE where God ever said that Abe's having concubines after Sarah died was counted to him "as righteousness", as D and C 132 avers? And while you are at it, can you show us where D and C 132 gave Smith leave to marry other men's wives, while they were still married to their first husbands?

CAN YOU?
 
I think you're not paying attention. I've addressed this. How can it be adultery?
When you have sex with another woman besides your wife that's called adultery. So, you're not asking the right question. The question is, why was Abraham not held to account for the sin of adultery?

Your really expect the father of the children of promise is an adulterer?
What I expect is that he was human just like us, not perfect. You seem to have this thinking that to be counted as one who keeps God's commands means you have kept them perfectly. That is the thinking of the Pharisee. King David was an adulterer and a murderer and, yet, he had been chosen to be king because he was a man after God's own heart.

Sincere, but struggling, Christians understand this. Life in Christ does not mean lawful perfection. And that's because we are still in our fallen flesh bodies which is always competing with and in conflict with the things of the Spirit (Galatians 5:17). Honest Christians know this. They don't play the pretend game of being perfect. Only people who think their righteousness before God depends on their righteous perfection think that.

If God ignored it then, then why should he pay attention to it now?
Because Jesus himself charged us that it is not going to be ignored or overlooked anymore:

Matthew 19:8-9
8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hardness of heart; but it was not this way from the beginning. 9Now I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman, commits adultery.d


Of course, you claim this means adultery only happens in the context of divorce. You're (willingly?) oblivious to the fact that if it's adultery to divorce your wife and marry another woman, then it's obviously adultery to marry another woman while still married to that wife. That isn't a matter of scriptural or spiritual interpretation. That's just plain, honest sense. No special gift of discernment is required to see that. Just some honesty.

If you have questions about that, ask God. We're not in charge, he is and He commanded Joseph Smith to introduce and practice polygamy. Joseph isn't the first, he isn't the only, he is in a line of some very prominent prophets.
Why did your prophet not heed Jesus' charge in Matthew 19:9? His fruit this side of Jesus' charge shows us he was a false prophet.

We don't need to find ways to excuse it.
Well, you do need to come up with an excuse to ignore Jesus' charge that marrying another woman is adultery. Because it is.

God either changed his mind and decided it was wrong or there is a reason for it. It was codified in the law of Moses.
What God changed his mind about is that more than one wife will not be ignored anymore. More than one wife has always been adultery. It was overlooked for the reason Jesus said it was overlooked. You know what that reason is, right? Examine your heart, friend.

Jesus' great great grandmother was a polygamist under that code. Jews could also take a wife of conquerered nations, there was no stipulation that the person taking such a woman to wife must be single. The house of Israel was polygamists. It was not the exception, it was the rule.
You can list every single instance of multiple wives prior to Jesus that you want. That's not the issue. The issue is Jesus charged us that it will not be that way anymore: "9Now I tell you..." Matthew 19:9.

How are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob or Moses not adulterers? That's the question.
The Patriarchs are not adulterers for this primary reason:

Romans 5:13
13For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.


Let's put the issue of adultery aside for a moment. Abraham divorced Hagar. That shows us there was no law prohibiting divorce then. This fact alone shows us Abraham did not have the same law as us. Throw in the matter of his polygamy and we have even more evidence Abraham did not have the same law as us. For if he did, he would be under Jesus' charge that to divorce is adultery, besides the matter of marrying another woman itself. I know what you're going to say - divorce is what makes having a 2nd wife adultery. So just get right to the issue: How is having another wife by divorce adultery (and it is), but having another wife without divorcing isn't adultery?
 
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