The Adoption

Bonnie

Super Member
God created our bodies from the dust of the ground.

Our bodies had a beginning. Our being has no beginning, just like God's being has no beginning.

It is not a diversion. It is an answer to a direct question.

Clearly, the question has to do with who our parents before our birth would be which directly ties into the OP where db made the observation:

Try to keep up.
Sorry, but mankind had a beginning. We were created from the dust of the ground. God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. . Adam's intelligence wasn't floating around the universe until God decided to make his body out of the ground.

Besides, your church teaches that Adam was first Michael the Archangel, correct? Sooooo....how did your god create Michael?

And yes, it is a bit of a diversion. Now, before we are adopted to God in Christ Jesus, all of us of course, have physical fathers. But they have nothing to do with our relationship with God or our adoption to Him. Instead, before we are in Christ Jesus, we DO have a 'father'--wrath. Eph. 2 tells us that outside of Jesus we are "by NATURE, children of WRATH."

So, yes, I am keeping up. But please DO answer my question about Michael the archangel becoming Adam--and also please show me that in the Bible.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yes. In the sense that God is.

As demonstrated by db, when we die, our spirits leave our body. We know when god created our bodies. Where do the scriptures describe when God made our spirits? They don't. We know when our spirit enters our body, but there is nothing specific about where that spirit was created. We have, in Christ, an example of one spirit that was born, but we know that that birth was not Christ's beginning. So, apparently, from the scriptures, our bodies have a beginning and our spirits have a beginning, but nothing tells us where the being of man, or God, has a beginning. Therefore, we are all co-eternal with God. God predestinated us according to his foreknowledge. Other Christian religions don't quite not what to make of this. Does that mean that we are created to do what we do? Some thing so and base their religion around this. But this seems to fly in the face of freedom to choose good or evil. Such a theology teaches that it is God's fault that there are murderers and rapists and thieves. He predestinated them to do what they do. This is a false interpretation (the key word is on interpretation).

A more reasonable interpretation is that we have always existed and God knew us and what we'd do in this life. That we lived with him before we were born.
I think we got our souls when God "breathed" into Adam and he became a living soul.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The term "Father" here means "creator", not "progenitor".
Like when you call George Washington "the Father of [your] country".

The term also has this connotation in the following:

Is. 64:8 But now, O LORD, you are our Father;
we are the clay, and you are our potter;
we are all the work of your hand.

Mal. 2:10 Have we not all one Father?
Has not one God created us?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Sorry, but mankind had a beginning.
Of course they did. The LDS theology does not argue that point.

We were created from the dust of the ground.

What are you referring to when you use the term "we"? If it's the physical body--then we are fathered by our earthly parents.

God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. . Adam's intelligence wasn't floating around the universe until God decided to make his body out of the ground.
And how does that negate the fact the scriptures testify God is the Father of our spirits?

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

So--how are you relating any of your post to the OP?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Sorry, but mankind had a beginning.
Sorry, but when our bodies were created, mortality had a beginning, but our spirits will live after we are dead, obviously they don't need a body to live. It doesn't seem unreasonable that we also lived before our mortal bodies did. There is so much in the scriptures that describe a preexistence. Paul talked about our being predestinated. The Old Testament prophets spoke of being known before we were formed, added to our body, in the womb. There are the frequent descriptions of a divine council and Ps 82 which explicitly describes beings who would die like men and a council that took place before the worlds was formed. Is it a punishment to angels to be "breathed" into bodies and live in mortality? Is that what God meant in Ps 82? If so, are only the bad angels, divine beings, gods the ones who are made human so they can die like men or are all of them to become men?

I accept and believe the last option and through a true prophet of God, I understand that we existed even before we became the offspring of God as it seems that Jesus did, since he was firstborn of all creation. Now there's a beginning.
 

The Prophet

Active member
Hi Eternomade:

I'm implying--- before we were physical beings--we were spirits. Those same spirits inhabit our mortal bodies--leave upon death.

But that is not the point of this OP. The adoption happens here--during our mortal existence. Seeing that our spirits are adopted, as well as our physical bodies--who was the previous F(f)ather of our bodies and spirits--prior to the adoption?

That--in light of the fact one cannot adopt--- which is the natural F(f)ather. There is no need to, they are already the natural F(f)athers.

IOW--the LDS believe this is the natural F(f)athers:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

We are adopted to Jesus Christ in Eternal Life.
The Bible is clear we weren't spirits first

1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
 

The Prophet

Active member
Sorry, but when our bodies were created, mortality had a beginning, but our spirits will live after we are dead, obviously they don't need a body to live. It doesn't seem unreasonable that we also lived before our mortal bodies did. There is so much in the scriptures that describe a preexistence. Paul talked about our being predestinated. The Old Testament prophets spoke of being known before we were formed, added to our body, in the womb. There are the frequent descriptions of a divine council and Ps 82 which explicitly describes beings who would die like men and a council that took place before the worlds was formed. Is it a punishment to angels to be "breathed" into bodies and live in mortality? Is that what God meant in Ps 82? If so, are only the bad angels, divine beings, gods the ones who are made human so they can die like men or are all of them to become men?

I accept and believe the last option and through a true prophet of God, I understand that we existed even before we became the offspring of God as it seems that Jesus did, since he was firstborn of all creation. Now there's a beginning.
God is Omniscient, so of course God would know Jeremiah before he was born

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Bonnie

Super Member
The post addressed was this one:



If we got our souls when God breathed into Adam--then that was centuries before our mortal existence.
Have you forgotten that God predates our mortal existence? Do you think that means we had spirits that predated our mortal existence? Were those spirits in God's breath?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Sorry, but when our bodies were created, mortality had a beginning, but our spirits will live after we are dead, obviously they don't need a body to live. It doesn't seem unreasonable that we also lived before our mortal bodies did. There is so much in the scriptures that describe a preexistence. Paul talked about our being predestinated. The Old Testament prophets spoke of being known before we were formed, added to our body, in the womb. There are the frequent descriptions of a divine council and Ps 82 which explicitly describes beings who would die like men and a council that took place before the worlds was formed. Is it a punishment to angels to be "breathed" into bodies and live in mortality? Is that what God meant in Ps 82? If so, are only the bad angels, divine beings, gods the ones who are made human so they can die like men or are all of them to become men?

I accept and believe the last option and through a true prophet of God, I understand that we existed even before we became the offspring of God as it seems that Jesus did, since he was firstborn of all creation. Now there's a beginning.
Of course our spirits will live on AFTER we are dead. But we are talking about BEFORE we are born.

And being predestined to salvation does NOT mean we pre-existed as spirit children of HF and some unnamed HM in heaven, prior to being born in a mortal body.

God, being omniscient, among other attributes, would know in advance who would be born and when.

You wrote:

Is it a punishment to angels to be "breathed" into bodies and live in mortality? Is that what God meant in Ps 82? If so, are only the bad angels, divine beings, gods the ones who are made human so they can die like men or are all of them to become men?

Who said angels are "breathed" into bodies and live in mortality? No, that is not what God meant in Ps. 82, although the divine council may very well have been the angelic host--that God "stood" in their midst, judging the unjust judges on earth. He was NOT judging angels at this time. That happened before He created man, when Satan and one third of the angelic host were cast out of heaven.

And how could Ps. 82 have happened BEFORE the world was formed? Where did the widows and orphans come from, that God exhorted the judges to uphold? WHERE were the wicked folk that these "gods" favored? IF Ps. 82 is about what happened BEFORE the earth was created?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Offspring have a progenitor:

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Ever hear of a figure of speech? Like, "Offspring" here being figurative, since the rest of Scripture tells us that we are, by nature, children of wrath, not by nature, children of God? IF we are the literal offspring of God, then wouldn't that make us, BY NATURE, children of God? But that isn't what Paul wrote--is it? Doesn't he tell us that we are ADOPTED TO THE FATHER, THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ? NOT adopted TO Jesus, but THROUGH HIM to the Father? Do you know the difference between "through" and "to"? Or has Mormonism redefined THOSE words, also?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The Bible is clear we weren't spirits first

1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

That's a reference to the physical body--not the spirit.

IOW--we first have a natural physical body, and in the Resurrection--we have an immortal, resurrected body.(spiritual body) The Savior showed it is a body of flesh and bones:

Luke 24:39---King James Version
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Have you forgotten that God predates our mortal existence?

I have no idea how you are relating that to your claim here:

Bonnie said: I think we got our souls when God "breathed" into Adam and he became a living soul.

The point I addressed there is--if we got our souls at that point--that is centuries before we were born. That supports the idea of pre-existence.

Do you think that means we had spirits that predated our mortal existence? Were those spirits in God's breath?

Your claim was-- "we got our souls when God "breathed" into Adam and he became a living soul." If that is true--then so is pre-existence.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Ever hear of a figure of speech?
Spirits are more than a figure of speech--they are reality. And, if Paul was correct--offspring are reality also.

Like, "Offspring" here being figurative, since the rest of Scripture tells us that we are, by nature, children of wrath, not by nature, children of God? IF we are the literal offspring of God, then wouldn't that make us, BY NATURE, children of God?
Paul was referring to the flesh--we are discussing spirits, as offspring:

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

But that isn't what Paul wrote--is it? Doesn't he tell us that we are ADOPTED TO THE FATHER, THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ? NOT adopted TO Jesus, but THROUGH HIM to the Father?
The scriptures testify the adoption into the Abrahamic lineage occurs in we being "Christ's"

Galatians 3:26-29---King James Version
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
That's a reference to the physical body--not the spirit.

IOW--we first have a natural physical body, and in the Resurrection--we have an immortal, resurrected body.(spiritual body) The Savior showed it is a body of flesh and bones:

Luke 24:39---King James Version
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Don't you know that Jesus is BOTH God and Man? As God He would be spirit, would He not? But as man, He would have a physical body...else, how did HE pop in and out of a room where the door was locked?
Spirits are more than a figure of speech--they are reality. And, if Paul was correct--offspring are reality also.


Paul was referring to the flesh--we are discussing spirits, as offspring:

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.


The scriptures testify the adoption into the Abrahamic lineage occurs in we being "Christ's"

Galatians 3:26-29---King James Version
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Why do you write as if I have not answered you?

Doesn't Paul write that we are God's children and members of His household BY ADOPTION BY FAITH IN HIS SON? Don't you know that ALL of the biblical witness must be taken into account, and not isolated--as you have isolated that one verse about being God's offspring?

If we are literally the offspring of God by some unnamed HM, in the premortal spirit existence, then why did John write THIS:

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

IF we already are by nature children of God in the pre-mortal spirit existence, then why would anyone need the RIGHT TO BECOME God's children--if they already ARE his spirit children? Do you remember that we are NOT adopted TO The Son but TO The Father THROUGH the Son? Do you know the difference between "through" and "to"?

And do you not know that "offspring" can have a figurative meaning, even as "father" and "children" can? OR do you think every instance of the word "offspring" in the Bible is meant to be taken literally?

And don't you remember what Paul wrote about HOW we are "Abraham's seed"? In Galatians 3:

5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Are these Gentile Galatians that Paul is writing to the PHYSICAL descendants of Abraham, or is it a SPIRITUAL relationship with Abraham, because of their faith in Jesus Christ?

So, are we Abraham's seed by physical descent or is it a spiritual relationship, due to our faith in Jesus Christ?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Don't you know that Jesus is BOTH God and Man? As God He would be spirit, would He not? But as man, He would have a physical body...else, how did HE pop in and out of a room where the door was locked?
You are off track with that, as my comments were directed to Prophet's comments about our spirits preceding the physical body.

Prophet quoted 1 Cor 15:46 to show the physical was first:

1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

My retort was that was 1Cor is a reference to the mortal flesh--and the resurrected body.--both physical bodies, not to the spirit.1 Cor15 is addressing the resurrection--the physical bodies of mortality or the resurrected body--not whether the physical body or spirit came first.

IOW--the natural physical body comes first--then the spiritual, resurrected body.

Doesn't Paul write that we are God's children and members of His household BY ADOPTION BY FAITH IN HIS SON?

If it's an adoption--then naturally--the adopted are not offspring of an adoptive parent--that's the reason there has to be an adoption.

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

As to men--offspring are F(f)athered by the natural parent:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Those are the natural parents--and their offspring.

An adoption occurs because the adopted is not the offspring of the adopting person.
 
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