The ant philosopher and Beethoven feline.

boogieman

New member
This is probably a really dumb thought dump and good proof it's bedtime.

I was watching a nature documentary and they said the queen was a slave to the colony, she never sees daylight after she forms the colony, and she is only there to reproduce. This immediately hit me as a very silly sounding statement. How can an ant be a slave if they are doing their function in the colony? Is a worker ant or a soldier ant a slave? I see an ant colony as similar in function to a single non hive animal. Can a dog's liver be a slave to the dog? Can our toenails be a slave to us? It just doesn't make sense.

This got me thinking about free will. Can an ant have free will? No more than our liver has a free will. Does an ape that paints pictures when taught how to use a brush have artistic expression? Maybe they like seeing different colors, but how does an ape's concept of art differ from ours? Does a parrot trained to recognize shapes and colors do it for any reason other than a reward or to please the trainer? If you could teach a cat to play the piano, what music would be on the Top 40 cat radio? I've heard of monkeys using sticks to get grubs out of wood, primitive tool use in crows etc. Why haven't apes made cordless drills?

Think of the astronomical odds that a human could even exist. Humans aren't an evolutionary accident. How could evolution explain the myriad of ways humans adapt, think, use logic, enjoy philosophy, invent new ways to play, write music, etc. That stuff isn't beneficial from an evolutionary standpoint. Humans could have all their needs to maintain life met with a simple lifestyle like an ape, and yet here we are, sending 1s and 0s on a globally connected network that runs on electricity.

Just some thoughts, I think I need some sleep.
 

Torin

Member
@boogieman, science is methodologically naturalistic. It assumes that there is a naturalistic explanation for any given phenomenon as a principle of methodology, then tries to figure out what that naturalistic explanation is. It may take 100 years or more to figure out what the naturalistic explanation is, or the naturalistic explanation may never be discovered, but science never yields to a supernatural explanation.

So, it might take 100 years to figure out what the naturalistic explanation is for our ability to reason, or to enjoy philosophy, or whatever. But it is never scientific to "explain" those phenomena by reference to the supernatural. Too many supernatural explanations have been superceded by natural explanations for that superstitious approach to ever be credible again.
 

5wize

Active member
This is probably a really dumb thought dump and good proof it's bedtime.

I was watching a nature documentary and they said the queen was a slave to the colony, she never sees daylight after she forms the colony, and she is only there to reproduce. This immediately hit me as a very silly sounding statement. How can an ant be a slave if they are doing their function in the colony? Is a worker ant or a soldier ant a slave? I see an ant colony as similar in function to a single non hive animal. Can a dog's liver be a slave to the dog? Can our toenails be a slave to us? It just doesn't make sense.

This got me thinking about free will. Can an ant have free will? No more than our liver has a free will. Does an ape that paints pictures when taught how to use a brush have artistic expression? Maybe they like seeing different colors, but how does an ape's concept of art differ from ours? Does a parrot trained to recognize shapes and colors do it for any reason other than a reward or to please the trainer? If you could teach a cat to play the piano, what music would be on the Top 40 cat radio? I've heard of monkeys using sticks to get grubs out of wood, primitive tool use in crows etc. Why haven't apes made cordless drills?

Think of the astronomical odds that a human could even exist. Humans aren't an evolutionary accident. How could evolution explain the myriad of ways humans adapt, think, use logic, enjoy philosophy, invent new ways to play, write music, etc. That stuff isn't beneficial from an evolutionary standpoint. Humans could have all their needs to maintain life met with a simple lifestyle like an ape, and yet here we are, sending 1s and 0s on a globally connected network that runs on electricity.

Just some thoughts, I think I need some sleep.
It's not dumb... even Atheists like myself wander into a Louis Armstrong kind of "Ain't it a wonderful world" rumination of the order of things, and each part serves some beautiful whole, which culminates in a comfortable feeling of unique sentience to not just play a part, but be able to reflect on it as well. But that assumes you know the mind of a dog, a dolphin, a tree, or an ant's ability to reflect. You don't share in the experience of those forms of sentience and cannot editorialize accurately on them any more than you can share and editorialize on a knowledge of a universally hypothesized God concept. Think about that for a minute.... you know no more about a god's thoughts than you do a dog's.... and we actively and empirically live and experience our world with dogs.

Now you can ask, "Where does an animal express art and entertainment?". Well, without opposing thumbs they invent quite a bit of art and entertainment in the way they devise methodologies to hunt, create social structures, or how beyond the drive of hunger a cat will entertain itself by playing with a mouse or a Killer Whale will flip a seal through the air that it has no intention of eating. They do what they can with what hey have. Look down at your hands.... apes have created the cordless drill. Don't get too picky about which apes.
 
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Nouveau

Active member
Think of the astronomical odds that a human could even exist. Humans aren't an evolutionary accident. How could evolution explain the myriad of ways humans adapt, think, use logic, enjoy philosophy, invent new ways to play, write music, etc. That stuff isn't beneficial from an evolutionary standpoint. Humans could have all their needs to maintain life met with a simple lifestyle like an ape, and yet here we are, sending 1s and 0s on a globally connected network that runs on electricity.
Not everything that results from evolution has to be directly adaptive. Much can be explained as the indirect consequences of what has been directly selected for. For example, we have evolved in an ecological niche for general intelligence, which explains our enjoyment of logic and philosophy (as well as the specific ways in which we often fail to be ideally logical in our reasoning). Play in particular is of obvious adaptive value, and can be seen in other animals as well. We play in ways that develop physical skill and co-ordination, social skills and strategy, and again general reasoning and problem-solving. Art and music are more difficult to explain, but there are many possible hypotheses there as well. We clearly have a massive adaptive advantage over other apes with our capacity for reasoning, tool use, technology, and complex social groupings, so I don't see how our more complex lifestyle counts against an evolutionary account.
 

Gus Bovona

Member
@boogieman, science is methodologically naturalistic. It assumes that there is a naturalistic explanation for any given phenomenon as a principle of methodology, then tries to figure out what that naturalistic explanation is. It may take 100 years or more to figure out what the naturalistic explanation is, or the naturalistic explanation may never be discovered, but science never yields to a supernatural explanation.
Science *has* investigated the supernatural, like ESP, intercessary prayer, ghosts, etc. But, ultimately, the distinction between natural and supernatural breaks down and is not useful. How do we distinguish the natural from the supernatural in such a way that it walls off the supernatural from science?
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
This is probably a really dumb thought dump and good proof it's bedtime.

I was watching a nature documentary and they said the queen was a slave to the colony, she never sees daylight after she forms the colony, and she is only there to reproduce. This immediately hit me as a very silly sounding statement. How can an ant be a slave if they are doing their function in the colony? Is a worker ant or a soldier ant a slave? I see an ant colony as similar in function to a single non hive animal. Can a dog's liver be a slave to the dog? Can our toenails be a slave to us? It just doesn't make sense.

This got me thinking about free will. Can an ant have free will? No more than our liver has a free will. Does an ape that paints pictures when taught how to use a brush have artistic expression? Maybe they like seeing different colors, but how does an ape's concept of art differ from ours? Does a parrot trained to recognize shapes and colors do it for any reason other than a reward or to please the trainer? If you could teach a cat to play the piano, what music would be on the Top 40 cat radio? I've heard of monkeys using sticks to get grubs out of wood, primitive tool use in crows etc. Why haven't apes made cordless drills?

Think of the astronomical odds that a human could even exist. Humans aren't an evolutionary accident. How could evolution explain the myriad of ways humans adapt, think, use logic, enjoy philosophy, invent new ways to play, write music, etc. That stuff isn't beneficial from an evolutionary standpoint. Humans could have all their needs to maintain life met with a simple lifestyle like an ape, and yet here we are, sending 1s and 0s on a globally connected network that runs on electricity.

Just some thoughts, I think I need some sleep.
So why can't apes write music, invent and build pianos, read music, memorize Beethovan sonata.
Then why can't they teach other apes to do that?


For the biggest deal breaker, why can't the Wizards of smart PhD's in biology teach apes any of the above?

They insist they are smart teachers. Know how to teach.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
So why can't apes write music, invent and build pianos, read music, memorize Beethovan sonata.
Then why can't they teach other apes to do that?


For the biggest deal breaker, why can't the Wizards of smart PhD's in biology teach apes any of the above?

They insist they are smart teachers. Know how to teach.
How much more time do apes want?
 

5wize

Active member
So why can't apes write music, invent and build pianos, read music, memorize Beethovan sonata.
Then why can't they teach other apes to do that?


For the biggest deal breaker, why can't the Wizards of smart PhD's in biology teach apes any of the above?

They insist they are smart teachers. Know how to teach.
What difference does it make? Nobody has shown art and creativity being indicative of a god. Fish swim, birds fly, humans make art. So what?
 

boogieman

New member
What difference does it make? Nobody has shown art and creativity being indicative of a god. Fish swim, birds fly, humans make art. So what?
To go with that same thought, humans walk as fish swim and birds fly. But also art and creativity. I'm not necessarily trying to convince you of God in this, but whatever humans have, it's exponentially greater than animals. That exponential is hard to explain through evolution alone. Sure, you could explain animals via evolution, but they're lacking something that humans have. I'm not trying or wanting to be argumentative, but God is a creator and we are created in his image if you reference the bible. The jump from apes or monkeys to human level of understanding and creativity is just astoundingly huge.
 

5wize

Active member
To go with that same thought, humans walk as fish swim and birds fly. But also art and creativity. I'm not necessarily trying to convince you of God in this, but whatever humans have, it's exponentially greater than animals. That exponential is hard to explain through evolution alone. Sure, you could explain animals via evolution, but they're lacking something that humans have. I'm not trying or wanting to be argumentative, but God is a creator and we are created in his image if you reference the bible. The jump from apes or monkeys to human level of understanding and creativity is just astoundingly huge.
Are animals being creative when they dance to impress? Some birds actually improvise their song till the deed gets done. Not prevalent I agree, but present. Human artists have significantly more grey matter in an area of the brain called the precuneus in the parietal lobe. Maybe our larger brains just allow us a broader exploration of these primitive drives to express? We may assume it is some transcendent feature, but the superstitious portion of our mind thinks that about many things we don't understand.
 
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Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
So why can't apes write music, invent and build pianos, read music, memorize Beethovan sonata.
Then why can't they teach other apes to do that?


For the biggest deal breaker, why can't the Wizards of smart PhD's in biology teach apes any of the above?

They insist they are smart teachers. Know how to teach.


Darwin dumb as a stump



Darwin concluded that adult females of most species resembled the young of both sexes and from this and the other evidence, "reasoned that males are more evolutionarily advanced than females" (Kevles, 1986:8). Many anthropologists contemporary to Darwin concluded that "women's brains were analogous to those of animals," which had "overdeveloped" sense organs "to the detriment of the brain" (Fee, 1979:418).
So he sat in his wife beater shirt and hassled his wife/cousin Emma. Lifetime unemployed mooched on his wife. 4th generation of inbreds.

Darwin was retarded in maths. Tutor gave up on him learning math. Christ College diploma mill. all white male school

Our daughter finished her upperlevel University ENGINEERING math requirements before she started High School. Doctorate in engineering
 

5wize

Active member
Darwin dumb as a stump




So he sat in his wife beater shirt and hassled his wife/cousin Emma. Lifetime unemployed mooched on his wife. 4th generation of inbreds.

Darwin was retarded in maths. Tutor gave up on him learning math. Christ College diploma mill. all white male school

Our daughter finished her upperlevel University ENGINEERING math requirements before she started High School. Doctorate in engineering
They do say brains skip a generation.
 

Hypatia_Alexandria

Active member
So why can't apes write music, invent and build pianos, read music, memorize Beethovan sonata.
Then why can't they teach other apes to do that?


For the biggest deal breaker, why can't the Wizards of smart PhD's in biology teach apes any of the above?

They insist they are smart teachers. Know how to teach.
Why can't humans with our big brains, self awareness, and our ability for abstract thought make honey?
 
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