the ape body prison we are in is not the body man had in Eden

e v e

Super Member
I don't even have to argue that point....Adam was flesh prior to the fall.

21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.22And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he madeh into a woman and brought her to the man. 23Then the man said,


“This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man.”
the 'taking out' is not good. mistranslation.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
the 'taking out' is not good. mistranslation.
The various translators of these Bible versions disagree with you:


They all say "taken out" or "taken from." Both mean the same thing.

Now, how is it we now have an "ape body"? How can that be, when man is NOT an ape? Apes have sloping faces, almost no nose bridge, smaller craniums in proportion to their heads, and arms much longer than their legs. Does that sound like a description of a human?

What kind of bodies do APES have NOW, after the fall?
 
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CrowCross

Well-known member
The various translators of these Bible versions disagree with you:


They all say "taken out" or "taken from." Both mean the same thing.

Now, how is it we now have an "ape body"? How can that be, when man is NOT an ape? Apes have sloping faces, almost no nose bridge, and arms much longer than their legs. Does thst sound like a description of a human?
If I've read Eve correctly she doesn't think pre-fall Adam had a physical body.

I'm not concerned about the out of....what defeats her position is flesh of my flesh.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Okay. If that is true, then that is rank Gnosticism or Neo-platonism, I forget which--that only spirit is good, and matter is evil. IF they were only spirit, then seems to me Adam would have said Eve was "spirit of my spirit"--is that it?

The quote from the Psalm of David, where he writes that God made him in his mother's womb, also disproves the idea that matter is automatically evil. Which is why I find the idea that we are in ape bodies now so insulting!
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
well, e v e, why is "taken out" a bad translation? Just saying it is, does not make it true.
And what about my questions about those Bible verses, that prove this earth is God's NOW? And the one where David praises God for David's body? Will you please deal with them? And is CrowCross correct about what you are trying to say?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
the 'taking out' is not good. mistranslation.
Could you please clarify, eve? Are you saying Adam and Eve had perfect spirit bodies but after the Fall, they got physical, esau bodies of flesh and bones? Not sure what you are trying to say here.
 

e v e

Super Member
i hate it when people talk over me in the third person...

awful when that happens... it creates a situation which I won't describe but anyone can figure out.
 

e v e

Super Member
I wrote out a whole response to you Bonnie to your question and now I lost it. :(
I have chronic fatigue. I am trying to figure out how to get it back or how to redo it.

heartache.

the short answer is that Adam and Eve had perfectly physical bodies but not of the same type of physicality here.
That short answer is not really good compared to my longer effort. Sigh.
 

e v e

Super Member
Could you please clarify, eve? Are you saying Adam and Eve had perfect spirit bodies but after the Fall, they got physical, esau bodies of flesh and bones? Not sure what you are trying to say here.
The dualism idea comes from the Greek and gnostics. So no, adam and eve were not spirit beings.
I guess I won't be able to get back all that I typed.
But we do know Adam touched Christ when Christ was in his resurrected body, the same one we will have ---
which is the eden body adam and eve lost.

the body we have now and the way nature is here on this earth is all the result of the fall.

I wish I had not lost all what I typed.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The dualism idea comes from the Greek and gnostics. So no, adam and eve were not spirit beings.
I guess I won't be able to get back all that I typed.
But we do know Adam touched Christ when Christ was in his resurrected body, the same one we will have ---
which is the eden body adam and eve lost.

the body we have now and the way nature is here on this earth is all the result of the fall.

I wish I had not lost all what I typed.
Okay, thanks. What "dualism"? We DO have both a physical body and a soul/spirit. How is that Gnostic?

But you do err--Adam has NOT been resurrected yet. His soul is in heaven, but he will not get back his physical body, glorified, until the Resurrection from the Dead, at Jesus' second coming. So it is with all of us, except Enoch and Elijah. The Bible makes that plain.

And why is "taken out" not a good translation?
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
The only way one will understand Gods creation is if you recieve from Him that what Jesus recieved from Him in Matt 3:16, Same thing Adam recieved form Him when he became like Him as well, same thing Moses, Abraham, 120 recieved where the reality of Gods creation was opend to them and He does the same today who will recieve from Him the same.

His creation is SPirit, His creation is Love and man is only the temple of. The change comes only by a cleaning of the mind that is formed in carnality from flesh where God is created in the omage of a man named Jesus, to the reality of God is a SPirit and man is only the recipeient of Gods SPirit.

The simplicity of it all is God is Love and man is the temple of Him. But unfortunatlt few who find His way of change to be that image of Him themselves.

All the carnal man can see is a mortal man as a god thast is in their image.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
The dualism idea comes from the Greek and gnostics. So no, adam and eve were not spirit beings.
I guess I won't be able to get back all that I typed.
But we do know Adam touched Christ when Christ was in his resurrected body, the same one we will have ---
which is the eden body adam and eve lost.

the body we have now and the way nature is here on this earth is all the result of the fall.

I wish I had not lost all what I typed.
You're going to need a bit more than speculation...how about some biblical references?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The only way one will understand Gods creation is if you recieve from Him that what Jesus recieved from Him in Matt 3:16, Same thing Adam recieved form Him when he became like Him as well, same thing Moses, Abraham, 120 recieved where the reality of Gods creation was opend to them and He does the same today who will recieve from Him the same.

His creation is SPirit, His creation is Love and man is only the temple of. The change comes only by a cleaning of the mind that is formed in carnality from flesh where God is created in the omage of a man named Jesus, to the reality of God is a SPirit and man is only the recipeient of Gods SPirit.

The simplicity of it all is God is Love and man is the temple of Him. But unfortunatlt few who find His way of change to be that image of Him themselves.

All the carnal man can see is a mortal man as a god thast is in their image.
I am mortal and do not see myself as a God. That would be the Mormons. I am not a Mormon.
 

e v e

Super Member
Okay, thanks. What "dualism"? We DO have both a physical body and a soul/spirit. How is that Gnostic?

But you do err--Adam has NOT been resurrected yet. His soul is in heaven, but he will not get back his physical body, glorified, until the Resurrection from the Dead, at Jesus' second coming. So it is with all of us, except Enoch and Elijah. The Bible makes that plain.

And why is "taken out" not a good translation?
What are you referring to about taken out? That was in a different post? Do you mean Eve taken out of Adam?

The body of Adam per Genesis was not a dualism...man in eden was one undivided living being. npsh as a term does not refer to parts, and thats the term in hebrew. but at the fall man lost his covering, his glorified being which is the resurrection body we will get back; man was given a different covering temporarily, out of mercy, which is this one. While npsh does not have dualism, the greek pagan version DOES. psuche to the greek mind is a spirit being with no body at all, free floating.

You asked what's dualism. I'm answering that below.

Dualism

Man did have a dualism situation After the fall, when we got into this sackcloth which is the current body. Hebrew sets our standard though, since that is the language of the OT which gives all legal precedent to the NT, by announcing God the Son is coming to save us and many other points God makes and wants us to remember.

Dualism -- Pagan view (after that I will compare the christian view)
dualism is the main feature of both plato/aristotle's cosmology and metaphysics and also form of 'exegesis' which was adopted in medieval times by theologians in varying degrees.

Dualism In the Greek cosmology - the world of matter and the spiritual realm are completely separate. The material world is a a lesser hated place. The only goal of a philosopher is the spiritual realm. However, that spiritual realm is of the pagan gods (who I identify in every pagan text as the satanic realm and the fallen angels, or watchers as they are also called.) The soul in the pagan version is indestructible, unaffected and functions as an oversoul entity across many persons. So it is not an individual soul but in essence a god. This god is identified in pagan texts with wisdom directs the person during life. It is the mover unmoved which many in medieval times thought was God, and still on this forum I have seen that term used. It is unmoved because it does not care, cannot be affected and is not a person at all. It is an IT. It has no feelings but is pure mind or consciousness. it matches exactly the new age 'cosmic consciousness' or buddhist 'nirvana' god of nothingness. The arguments about 'something' versus 'nothing' between Plato and Parmenides have to do with this dualism of matter and spirit. The world of matter is everything here (of the five senses) in Plato and Aristotle; whereas the world of spirit, or the forms, is where all the patterns of reality are. What I wrote here is cliff notes and is a lot more to take in but for brevity that's all I will say.

Augustine and the forms/the platonic soul - in his text on free choice of the will, augustine explicitly associates, with not doubt at all the forms with God and the platonic soul with some aspect of God. These are not christian concepts. In that same text and others many such mistakes occur. I cannot detail them all here. But he specifically refers to the platonic forms and the platonic soul type 'god'. He does attempt to blend these to scripture, because he never really recovered from being a manichee (a type of gnostic) and a platonist. This was egged on by jerome and ambrose both, since both had a tendency to weave platonic and Greek concepts into their viewpoint, thinking that this type of science could explain christianity. A classical education at that time included these thinkers, and their philosophies underlied 'science' and was mixed with theology as a way of making christianity acceptable on a secular basis. We see that today, when people try to prove that christianity and science align somehow.

Dualism and metaphysics - The nature of the soul could not be dual for the greeks since the oversoul was basically god and god could not have any matter or be affected by anything. This goes along in Aristotles substance/accident theory. where God is substance and the material world falls under accidents. this is a theory of causality and I've written a paper on it and other points of the above, with footnotes. It's too involved to develop. However, Augustine and Aquinas both subscribed to that God was substance and separated out the soul of people which is a lower substance from divine substance. For their proofs in the Aquinas' summa and in Augustines de Trinitate, they used aristotle's greek causality as the structure of reality, thus overlaying the greek metaphysics onto scripture.

Dualism in exegesis - In plato, exegesis proceeds by diaeresis (dialectic). Dialectic is basically 'division'. One split things into topics and whittles down, eliminating candidates of a debate. It's basically dualism in debate since opposites are argued into finer and finer detail until some core element prevails. This is how cosmology is broken down as well and how for plato and aristotle substance could be 'divided' from matter. Such that aristotle's syllogism argument format still used today is based exactly on this type of division. This type of argument is used through out the summa and determines: what questions are worth asking, and the format in which to answer. The summa bases all its questions on greek concerns and questions since aquinas was responding to islamicist averroes from an aristotelian point of view they both held. The entire summa is a greek text in my view, which attempts to fit God into the greek archetypes and concepts. Which is a pagan overlay onto christianity.

I do believe that there are three, and they are God - He, His Spirit, and His Son. However, the greeks muddied this and I often see the greek overlay in discussions of trinity. Plato had laid out these three and augustine heavily relied on plato for his trinity commentary as well, not just aristotle on the subject of substance. This creates a mess and explains some of the trinity wars but is too big a topic here. The point is that Those pagan 'versions' have affected theology and have not been fully discarded. Augustine got his plato in Plotinus via Porphyry. And much there is also sprinkled throughout all of Augustine's writings. I am not saying he did this on purpose but his platonic foundations affected his understanding of God, producing a view of God that resembles the satanic elohim (false gods, satan, the satanic metaphysics and mindset, and way of composing or viewi9ng reality etc.)

Duality in moral philosophy The above is the greek view. Causality is the theory tied to duality and also affected Augustine's moral philosophy since causality and dualism are the basis of the pagan 'karma' and also the basis of newton's law of conservation, which Plato describes in his text, the Phaedo. Dualism and causality are Based on Force, which is how the pagan gods rule (compare God, who is Love).

Free Choice - was based on their acceptance of fate, a concept tied heavily to karma and the will of the gods. The greeks did not have a concept of a specific soul, thus of a soul having any will to do anything, of making any choice, since the 'soul' was an oversoul (a god) and it ruled the body which was an accident. This is directly related to the modern oneness, since there is 'only one' and really no one exists except the one. It's platonism in a modern form. The gods themselves were the only ones 'with any being' and they warred among themselves (fallen angels). The free choice versus fate/predestined is too big for here but I could certainly discuss it in the christian view post I will do next, in a few minutes.

Psuche in the greek religion has no gender for a reason. The soul I described above is an IT, not a person, and has no feelings or love. it's a pure sort of spirit being without any other attribute except 'mind'. The mind here is not God's mind but the pagan god's mind which has entirely different 'qualitites' and which values different things. The pagan God has no feelings or love, is impervious, is only pure mind, can never be affected by anything outside of itself. This is a product of dualism, where spirit cannot contain anything which overlaps to physicality. If God could be 'affected' then he would contain something of matter. That is the pagan argument.

The type of soul that christians called a soul, the pagans considered to be earthly, exactly what Augustine believes in his genesis texts anthologized under that name On Genesis, where the earthly is ascribed to the soul (as aristotelian accident, matter and associated to eve for falling) and the higher mind is ascribed to adam, as mind (the carnal mind). This is all very greek of augustine. I know this is long. Believe me it could be volumes and volumes, with Footnotes.

In the next post I will give the christian version and show why it is none of the above. I'm sorry but you asked what dualism is and this is my reply. It's not Webster's and it can't be. I have not edited the above, it's all free flow , so forgive any typos. I guess this could be its own op but I am not even sure when I post anything if anyone reads it much less interested...so I leave it here.
 
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