the ape body prison we are in is not the body man had in Eden

e v e

Super Member
In the pagan view, previous post, the soul was not a specific soul in relation to God. And, there was only one. It was basically the carnal mind and clearly said by plato to guide people during life. In turn, some medievals such as augustine, viewed the soul as an earthly thing, not a divine substance but a finite substance, along the aristotelian model. This is not scriptural.

Individual adamic/adamite soul - In God's version, each son and daughter of Him was meant to be (except for the fall) one gorgeous undivided being. In Genesis the term is npsh, and He said, "In our Image". The image of God is male and female and man was made in His image. The term npsh means soul. The term npsh means flesh. They are one word describing both because there is no dualism in the term. Our resurrection body, at the Change, ends this situation (of the body plus soul on this earth) and restores us to our npsh being that was lost because of adam's betrayal. Indeed at the moment we are a wee soul of Him plus this body which he mercifully allowed us after the fall, albeit not our true glorified Eden body as meant for us.

The image was not divided in two, npsh has no parts and if there had been no fall, there would be no body that decays and dies as we have here, and no separating from that body, as we have here at death, since that was not the intention God had... He did not want us to fall and enter the world of death (where we are now!, which is the tree of good and evil). So what we have now is the perishable, because we lost the eden body by falling. This perishable body is Flesh and will not enter the kingdom. The new body is the original body of Eden, which Christ showed us, and is of a superior physicality and is not material dirt of what we have here. but neither is it pure spirit as the greeks imagine. The spiritual man is touchable - Thomas could touch Christ! The realm where eden is in the spiritual world is not dualistic. Where the pagan construction has no physicality, God's version is not part of that denuded pagan version.

However, what is meant by 'physicality' of eden and the physicality of this current world is not the same concept, because the world of death does conform somewhat to the pagan version... causality, karma, dualism etc.; those features of pagan theology are all features of the world of death (sin). And science is basically the describer of the world of death. it's accurate about the reality of the world of death. But is not accurate about the reality of God's creation, which will be restored to us, soon at the Change.

Adam and Eve in Eden could hear God and listened to Him. Compare the 'own mind' as depicted in previous post where the oversoul 'god' construct leads people to the pagan gods and people listen to that 'mind'. This is none other than the carnal mind directing human beings. Since plato and aristotle are pagan, they describe it in glowing terms scientific terms as a big help to man. Note that man cannot be saved in the pagan model. At most in greek theology a man could be so approved of by the gods as to be made into a god, rise in the ranks (survival of the fittest) (and that is the pagan version of an advanced spirit being or going to the 'change' or rapture - except this is not God's version but an abomiation instead): that a person would be made into a god or a demigod by the gods (fallen angels), as we see in all their texts. So the pagans also have a version of being saved or of eternal life, which is becoming enlightened and being touched by the god but it's not God's version at all. although I see here on the forum some believe in this and couch it in christian words and confuse it with God's version and think the fall was good, that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was an advance and was God's will. that tree of knowledge and good and evil represents the pagan version of 'becoming or being turned into a god' and now being as them, by having acquired wisdom and having chosen the satanic realm! The opposite of being saved by God!

I have left out how they actually 'become a god', which involves the abominations God will not forgive them for and is connected to their instigation of adam's fall and their creation of their pagan version of heaven. it's a horror and It's too much to go into here.
 
Last edited:

e v e

Super Member
At the moment, we are a soul plus body plus His mind directing us (or in some cases the carnal mind directs a person.)

In restored eden our souls are reunited with our glorified being lost at the fall, never to be separated again, which is the completion of being saved.

saved not only in our heart but now in reality (as cosmos) we will be in a different world, His, which is not this perishable one.
 
Last edited:

e v e

Super Member
where at the fall the 'change' was into carnality and into the satanic realm, sin, and all the cosmological changes that were involved with that..... the Change Paul describes is a Changing Back to Eden, to be reunited to our original (eden body).

His realm is not dualistic. If it seems I must be dualistic because I hate this earth, and well, so did the pagans, who wanted to go live in the heaven of the gods (elysian fields), in fact I'm not. What I want is that we leave the dualistic realm (the tree of knowledge of good and evil) and that we His souls return to God's realm, soon, at the Change.

His promise all through scripture is that we will be restored and He came here to legally make that possible. It's what the early church waited for...to go Home. And that is what I want too..that all His Souls go home very soon.
 

e v e

Super Member
The various translators of these Bible versions disagree with you:


They all say "taken out" or "taken from." Both mean the same thing.

Now, how is it we now have an "ape body"? How can that be, when man is NOT an ape? Apes have sloping faces, almost no nose bridge, smaller craniums in proportion to their heads, and arms much longer than their legs. Does that sound like a description of a human?

What kind of bodies do APES have NOW, after the fall?
Ive got chronic fatigue and used up all my energy for today with the other replies. I will reply to this tomorrow or later today, as soon as I have any energy.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
where at the fall the 'change' was into carnality and into the satanic realm, sin, and all the cosmological changes that were involved with that..... the Change Paul describes is a Changing Back to Eden, to be reunited to our original (eden body).

His realm is not dualistic. If it seems I must be dualistic because I hate this earth, and well, so did the pagans, who wanted to go live in the heaven of the gods (elysian fields), in fact I'm not. What I want is that we leave the dualistic realm (the tree of knowledge of good and evil) and that we His souls return to God's realm, soon, at the Change.

His promise all through scripture is that we will be restored and He came here to legally make that possible. It's what the early church waited for...to go Home. And that is what I want too..that all His Souls go home very soon.
The restoration of all things won't happen until Jesus' Second Coming and the Resurrection from the dead, where the saved get new, perfected bodies, and will be with our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever, in the new heaven and the new earth, the "home of righteousness." I never said this realm was "dualistic." Paul describes what will happen when Jesus comes again, and how we will get a glorified, immortal body, such as Jesus has now.

Why do you make what is so simple so complicated??
 

e v e

Super Member
The restoration of all things won't happen until Jesus' Second Coming and the Resurrection from the dead, where the saved get new, perfected bodies, and will be with our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever, in the new heaven and the new earth, the "home of righteousness." I never said this realm was "dualistic." Paul describes what will happen when Jesus comes again, and how we will get a glorified, immortal body, such as Jesus has now.

Why do you make what is so simple so complicated??
this is why i don’t bother with anything here ...

its not simple which is why i didn’t make it what it’s not. you asked what dualism is. i answered. if you don’t see dualism on this earth and that’s your only response... i’ve nothing more to add.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
In the pagan view, previous post, the soul was not a specific soul in relation to God. And, there was only one. It was basically the carnal mind and clearly said by plato to guide people during life. In turn, some medievals such as augustine, viewed the soul as an earthly thing, not a divine substance but a finite substance, along the aristotelian model. This is not scriptural.

Individual adamic/adamite soul - In God's version, each son and daughter of Him was meant to be (except for the fall) one gorgeous undivided being. In Genesis the term is npsh, and He said, "In our Image". The image of God is male and female and man was made in His image. The term npsh means soul. The term npsh means flesh. They are one word describing both because there is no dualism in the term. Our resurrection body, at the Change, ends this situation (of the body plus soul on this earth) and restores us to our npsh being that was lost because of adam's betrayal. Indeed at the moment we are a wee soul of Him plus this body which he mercifully allowed us after the fall, albeit not our true glorified Eden body as meant for us.

The image was not divided in two, npsh has no parts and if there had been no fall, there would be no body that decays and dies as we have here, and no separating from that body, as we have here at death, since that was not the intention God had... He did not want us to fall and enter the world of death (where we are now!, which is the tree of good and evil). So what we have now is the perishable, because we lost the eden body by falling. This perishable body is Flesh and will not enter the kingdom. The new body is the original body of Eden, which Christ showed us, and is of a superior physicality and is not material dirt of what we have here. but neither is it pure spirit as the greeks imagine. The spiritual man is touchable - Thomas could touch Christ! The realm where eden is in the spiritual world is not dualistic. Where the pagan construction has no physicality, God's version is not part of that denuded pagan version.

However, what is meant by 'physicality' of eden and the physicality of this current world is not the same concept, because the world of death does conform somewhat to the pagan version... causality, karma, dualism etc.; those features of pagan theology are all features of the world of death (sin). And science is basically the describer of the world of death. it's accurate about the reality of the world of death. But is not accurate about the reality of God's creation, which will be restored to us, soon at the Change.

Adam and Eve in Eden could hear God and listened to Him. Compare the 'own mind' as depicted in previous post where the oversoul 'god' construct leads people to the pagan gods and people listen to that 'mind'. This is none other than the carnal mind directing human beings. Since plato and aristotle are pagan, they describe it in glowing terms scientific terms as a big help to man. Note that man cannot be saved in the pagan model. At most in greek theology a man could be so approved of by the gods as to be made into a god, rise in the ranks (survival of the fittest) (and that is the pagan version of an advanced spirit being or going to the 'change' or rapture - except this is not God's version but an abomiation instead): that a person would be made into a god or a demigod by the gods (fallen angels), as we see in all their texts. So the pagans also have a version of being saved or of eternal life, which is becoming enlightened and being touched by the god but it's not God's version at all. although I see here on the forum some believe in this and couch it in christian words and confuse it with God's version and think the fall was good, that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was an advance and was God's will. that tree of knowledge and good and evil represents the pagan version of 'becoming or being turned into a god' and now being as them, by having acquired wisdom and having chosen the satanic realm! The opposite of being saved by God!

I have left out how they actually 'become a god', which involves the abominations God will not forgive them for and is connected to their instigation of adam's fall and their creation of their pagan version of heaven. it's a horror and It's too much to go into here.
Most of this is gibberish. Sorry, but it is. You may know what you mean, but it is just esoteric gibberish. Where is the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus our Lord? Where is the true Gospel message in anything you write on here?

The only ones I know of who think the Fall into sin was good--a fall UPWARD--and and that men can become gods are the Mormons. They are deceived. I am not a Mormon.

Being made in God's image does not mean being male and female. Gender is an aspect of creation, not of God. Being made in God's image means being holy as He is holy and having some of His attributes--intellect, an active will, the ability to love and self-sacrifice. This link does a pretty good job of describing it:


The image of God in man

The imago Dei, image of God in man, is first mentioned in Scripture in connection of man’s creation on the sixth and final day of creation. “So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them...” (Genesis 1:27,28). Some think it merely consists in dominion over the creatures, but such an interpretation is severely restrictive. It is far more than that.

The image of God in man is basically moral and spiritual: this is indicated in Colossians 3:10, "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him." In conjunction we may add Ephesians 4:24, "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
As originally created, man was endowed with knowledge, righteousness and holiness. By his sin man was deprived of these virtues, but through Christ he is renewed and restored to his pristine glory, nay more than that.
To confirm this definition of the image, I point out that Adam, after the fall, is said to have had children after his image, meaning, that he had sinful offspring, just as he was sinful. So the image of God in man is essentially man being a reflection of God in his spiritually pure character.
 

e v e

Super Member
Most of this is gibberish. Sorry, but it is. You may know what you mean, but it is just esoteric gibberish. Where is the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus our Lord? Where is the true Gospel message in anything you write on here?

The only ones I know of who think the Fall into sin was good--a fall UPWARD--and and that men can become gods are the Mormons. They are deceived. I am not a Mormon.

Being made in God's image does not mean being male and female. Gender is an aspect of creation, not of God. Being made in God's image means being holy as He is holy and having some of His attributes--intellect, an active will, the ability to love and self-sacrifice. This link does a pretty good job of describing it:

i can’t help your reading skills.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
this is why i don’t bother with anything here ...

its not simple which is why i didn’t make it what it’s not. you asked what dualism is. i answered. if you don’t see dualism on this earth and that’s your only response... i’ve nothing more to add.
The fault may not be with my understanding, but with the way you explain it. I don't have a doctorate in Philosophy, as you say you do (I think you have written that on the old boards) Sorry but I am only a layperson.

There is only one WHAT? In the pagan view? So, God meant us to be one undivided soul? Well, we STILL are. Even fallen, we still have body and soul, the latter of which lives on after death. And at the Resurrection, both body and soul will be reunited, for those of us who die before the Second Coming. That is what the Bible teaches. What do I care what pagans have taught?
 

e v e

Super Member
The fault may not be with my understanding, but with the way you explain it. I don't have a doctorate in Philosophy, as you say you do (I think you have written that on the old boards) Sorry but I am only a layperson.

There is only one WHAT? In the pagan view? So, God meant us to be one undivided soul? Well, we STILL are. Even fallen, we still have body and soul, the latter of which lives on after death. And at the Resurrection, both body and soul will be reunited, for those of us who die before the Second Coming. That is what the Bible teaches. What do I care what pagans have taught?
apparently God cares since he mentions those gods over and over in the OT.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
apparently God cares since he mentions those gods over and over in the OT.
Sigh. WHAT gods does God mention? The OT says that the "gods of the nations are idols." Idols don't exist, except in people's minds. There is only one God. And you did not address the rest of what I wrote in your posted response to me.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
i can’t help your reading skills.
My reading skills are just dandy.
I agree that we live in a fallen world. I agree that if sin had not occurred, our bodies would not have decayed. I agree that sin has tainted all of creation. But I don't need pagan philosophy or anything Augustinian wrote to understand what the Bible talks about, when it talks about the Fall, and man sinning, and being created in His image and losing that shiny image when sin came into the world. But that does not negate the fact that we are STILL composed of both body AND soul. Jesus even mentions that when He said "do not fear those who can destroy the body, but cannot destroy the soul. Rather, fear Him Who can destroy both body and soul in hell." (may be slightly paraphrased)

Why do we need pagan philosophy anyway? Who cares? It isn't the bible.
 
Last edited:

Bonnie

Super Member
what i wrote was very clear.
Is it? How about putting it in laymen's terms, so we can all understand it? Since most of us do not have doctorates in Philosophy?

I get the gist of what you wrote, but not the full import.

And why do you think we have APE bodies, when David wrote that "I am fearfully and wonderfully made" and that God knit his body in his mother's womb? Did God give David an APE body? Do we look like this:

1603904329688.png
 
Last edited:

Bonnie

Super Member
debates are not for me.

many here will though.

"many here will though" what? That does not make sense...

And do our bodies resemble the picture of the gorilla I put down on here? After all, it is you that wrote that the bodies we have NOW are "ape bodies", in the subject line of this thread.
 

e v e

Super Member
"many here will though" what? That does not make sense...

And do our bodies resemble the picture of the gorilla I put down on here? After all, it is you that wrote that the bodies we have NOW are "ape bodies", in the subject line of this thread.
many here will debate with you. those things are not for me.
I'm guessing the question is only rhetorical since you have decided the answers in advance...so why ask.

I won't be continuing the conversation since I've already been told my reply was gibberish. Which it certainly was not. I've got chronic fatigue and my time is valuable. No point to make an effort to reply if the replies are not read with the same effort.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
many here will debate with you. those things are not for me.
I'm guessing the question is only rhetorical since you have decided the answers in advance...so why ask.

I won't be continuing the conversation since I've already been told my reply was gibberish. Which it certainly was not. I've got chronic fatigue and my time is valuable. No point to make an effort to reply if the replies are not read with the same effort.
I also reminded you that most of us on here do not have Ph.D's in philosophy so it might be better if you would write in a more understandable way for lay people, like me, not scholars. Otherwise, it can sound like "gibberish." I said I did get the gist of what you wrote, but pagan philosophy has nothing to do with the Bible or what it has in it and teaches us about God and our Savior, Jesus Christ.

You made a wildly...strange statement in the subject line of this thread. I asked you a question about it. You have refused to answer. It was not a rhetorical question. The question was: why do you think we have APE bodies on earth NOW, when David said this about his body:

PS. 139
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book

Now, do you think David thought his body was an APE body? He said that GOD knit him together in his mother's womb. GOD did it. Did God give David an APE body? Yes or no? Simple question, e v e. It isn't rhetorical. I genuinely want to know.

I know you believe that the earth we have now isn't from God, and our bodies are not, either. But even so, how can you say we have APE bodies? Do we look like the gorilla in the picture I put down here? Are we apes?
 

e v e

Super Member
i feel my posts about the body are misunderstood and misconstrued.

I know things like that can happen.

I've nothing more to say on the topic.
 
Top