The Apostasy That Wasn't

nomrom

Member
All of today’s Cults from Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, etc., all teach that the Church went into total Apostasy after the Apostles died and so did their teachings, in order to justify the teachings of their Cult founders who claimed to have a new revelation and truth.

The early church DID NOT fall into apostasy or die out when the Apostles died. The teachings of the Apostles were continued through Apostolic Succession and we can read the writings and teachings many years after the Apostles died and easily see it is the same. These successors were Bishops like Ignatius, Polycarp, etc., who stand in lineal succession from the Apostles. The Church Did Not die and was not destroyed. The Church Did Not fall into complete and total apostasy. It Does Not need to be restored and here is why.

The Bible teaches that Jesus PROMISED His followers that He would be with them in their ministry making disciples, baptizing and teaching them, “even unto the end of the world” (Matthew 28:20). He PROMISED that He would build His Church, and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). These PROMISES that Jesus made would have been broken this had happened. Do you believe Jesus would lie or be so wrong? Could he fail?

While the Bible does mention that “SOME shall depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), it NEVER implies that a “Universal” Apostasy would take prior to His return. The fact the “SOME” (would) depart implies that others would NOT. And again we can see the writings, liturgy and teachings over the years to PROVE this. The New Testament here and elsewhere portrays apostasy as the acts and attitudes if INDIVIDUALS and GROUPS breaking away from the church and NOT as the Church ceasing to exist. The “FALL of the Church FAILS on Four Grounds:

BIBLICAL: It implied the Failure of the Holy Spirit to guide the church “into all truth” which in turn implied the failure of Christ PROMISE in John 14:26.

THEOLOGICAL: It implied the denial of Divine sovereignty.

HISTORICAL: There was NO evidence of a massive defection among early Christians.

SOCIOLOGICAL: If true, the fall of the church would have resulted in doctrinal fragmentation which flies in the face of the doctrinal unity shared by early Christians.

In order to find TRUTH, you must separate from the Christian Sects and Cults. The most reliable teachings are those that are and have been taught by the Church dispersed through the world in a succession reaching back to the Apostles and their immediate successors. The Church compiled the scriptures, the Church preserved the scriptures and the Church interprets the scriptures. The same Church that defined the Holy Trinity, the human and divine natures of Christ, is the same Church that compiled the scriptures that we enjoy every day.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
All of today’s Cults from Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, etc., all teach that the Church went into total Apostasy after the Apostles died and so did their teachings, in order to justify the teachings of their Cult founders who claimed to have a new revelation and truth.

The early church DID NOT fall into apostasy or die out when the Apostles died. The teachings of the Apostles were continued through Apostolic Succession and we can read the writings and teachings many years after the Apostles died and easily see it is the same. These successors were Bishops like Ignatius, Polycarp, etc., who stand in lineal succession from the Apostles. The Church Did Not die and was not destroyed. The Church Did Not fall into complete and total apostasy. It Does Not need to be restored and here is why.

The Bible teaches that Jesus PROMISED His followers that He would be with them in their ministry making disciples, baptizing and teaching them, “even unto the end of the world” (Matthew 28:20). He PROMISED that He would build His Church, and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). These PROMISES that Jesus made would have been broken this had happened. Do you believe Jesus would lie or be so wrong? Could he fail?

While the Bible does mention that “SOME shall depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), it NEVER implies that a “Universal” Apostasy would take prior to His return. The fact the “SOME” (would) depart implies that others would NOT. And again we can see the writings, liturgy and teachings over the years to PROVE this. The New Testament here and elsewhere portrays apostasy as the acts and attitudes if INDIVIDUALS and GROUPS breaking away from the church and NOT as the Church ceasing to exist. The “FALL of the Church FAILS on Four Grounds:

BIBLICAL: It implied the Failure of the Holy Spirit to guide the church “into all truth” which in turn implied the failure of Christ PROMISE in John 14:26.

THEOLOGICAL: It implied the denial of Divine sovereignty.

HISTORICAL: There was NO evidence of a massive defection among early Christians.

SOCIOLOGICAL: If true, the fall of the church would have resulted in doctrinal fragmentation which flies in the face of the doctrinal unity shared by early Christians.

In order to find TRUTH, you must separate from the Christian Sects and Cults. The most reliable teachings are those that are and have been taught by the Church dispersed through the world in a succession reaching back to the Apostles and their immediate successors. The Church compiled the scriptures, the Church preserved the scriptures and the Church interprets the scriptures. The same Church that defined the Holy Trinity, the human and divine natures of Christ, is the same Church that compiled the scriptures that we enjoy every day.
Your post is very interesting as this is one of the major things that the Mormon Church bases it's existence upon. I enjoyed reading it and it's a good thing to study and ponder in relation to the LDS. While I do think there were apostates from Christ I don't think that there was a complete lack of faith in the entire world at any point which to me is what an earthly apostasy would imply. But I don't think the LDS use the word apostasy the same way we are.
 

nomrom

Member
Your post is very interesting as this is one of the major things that the Mormon Church bases it's existence upon. I enjoyed reading it and it's a good thing to study and ponder in relation to the LDS. While I do think there were apostates from Christ I don't think that there was a complete lack of faith in the entire world at any point which to me is what an earthly apostasy would imply. But I don't think the LDS use the word apostasy the same way we are.
The totality of scripture teaches Jesus is God. Take a look at this brief summary of the Biblical evidence:

Jesus Claimed to Be God
He Prefaced His Statements as Though He Was God
He Identified Himself with God’s Own Name (“I Am”)
He Said that He and the Father Were from the Same World
He Talked as Though He Was Equal with God
He Said That He and God Were One

Jesus Demonstrated that He Had the Nature of God:
He Demonstrated Omniscience
He Demonstrated Omnipresence
He Demonstrated Omnibenevolence
He Demonstrated Omnipotence

Jesus Was Worshiped as God by Those Who Knew Him:
The wise men worshiped him from the moment He was born
The leper worshiped Him at his healing
The synagogue ruler worshiped Him
The disciples worshiped him in the boat
The Canaanite woman worshiped Him
The mother of James and John worshiped Him
The blind man worshiped Him at his healing
The women worshiped Him at the empty tomb
The disciples worshiped Him at the Ascension
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
BIBLICAL: It implied the Failure of the Holy Spirit to guide the church “into all truth” which in turn implied the failure of Christ PROMISE in John 14:26.
Nothing in John 14:26 implies nor does it explicitly state that the Holy Ghost would prevent the church from falling into apostasy. Jesus Christ foretold the apostasy and told his disciples they would all be killed and that's what happened.
THEOLOGICAL: It implied the denial of Divine sovereignty.
False. The church did not fail. The people did. The church has been restored which clearly indicates that it didn't fail.
HISTORICAL: There was NO evidence of a massive defection among early Christians.
Then you're just looking at history wrong. The church died in 70AD and didn't reappear in any form until the 4th century and when it reappeared, it wasn't the church that Christ had formed. It didn't look and still doesn't look anything like the church that Christ formed. Namely, it didn't have apostles and prophets, two things that Paul clearly stated were absolutely necessary for the church to function. Of course, you will disagree with me, but it's clear that you have your own version of history so the argument is moot anyway.
SOCIOLOGICAL: If true, the fall of the church would have resulted in doctrinal fragmentation which flies in the face of the doctrinal unity shared by early Christians.
Pay attention. Look around you. What we have today is doctrinal fragmentation. Do you think that because you all can agree on a few things, that you have doctrinal unity? The early church didn't even have unity. It was infiltrated by false apostles even while Paul was preaching and was again mentioned in the letters from John to the seven churches.
 

nomrom

Member
Nothing in John 14:26 implies nor does it explicitly state that the Holy Ghost would prevent the church from falling into apostasy. Jesus Christ foretold the apostasy and told his disciples they would all be killed and that's what happened.

False. The church did not fail. The people did. The church has been restored which clearly indicates that it didn't fail.

Then you're just looking at history wrong. The church died in 70AD and didn't reappear in any form until the 4th century and when it reappeared, it wasn't the church that Christ had formed. It didn't look and still doesn't look anything like the church that Christ formed. Namely, it didn't have apostles and prophets, two things that Paul clearly stated were absolutely necessary for the church to function. Of course, you will disagree with me, but it's clear that you have your own version of history so the argument is moot anyway.

Pay attention. Look around you. What we have today is doctrinal fragmentation. Do you think that because you all can agree on a few things, that you have doctrinal unity? The early church didn't even have unity. It was infiltrated by false apostles even while Paul was preaching and was again mentioned in the letters from John to the seven churches.
Like the post says, The Church Did Not need to be restored because it Never went Apostate. While the Bible does mention that “SOME shall depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), it NEVER implies that a “Universal” Apostasy would take prior to His return. The fact the “SOME” (would) depart implies that others would NOT. You think Jesus would allow His Church to Fail?

Why would God have allowed His people to dwell in darkness for almost two thousand years after Christ, until the coming of Joseph Smith and his many FAILED PROPHECIES to lead them to the truth?

What good reason could there be for believing self-proclaimed prophets who failed the test of a true prophet (Deuteronomy 18:20-22) and whose teachings contradict the clear doctrines of the Holy Scriptures, instead of holding to the truth proclaimed by the Church ( One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church) founded by Christ and led by His Apostles and their successors?

Why would any intelligent person become a part of a religious movement founded by men whose dishonesty is so apparent?

Your Soul is on the line and you placed it in the trust of a failed prophet who once said little men live on the moon dressed like quakers :)
 

nomrom

Member
The totality of scripture shows Jesus as directing worship toward God, his Father.
The Apostle John’s Testimony: After his resurrection, they saw Jesus with new eyes. And before he left earth, Jesus began to unfold mysteries to them about his identity during the great 40 days. Recalling his Lord’s words, John begins his gospel by revealing who Jesus is:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (John 1: 1-4).

Although scientists now believe the universe had a beginning from nothing, they can’t tell us who was there to start it all. John reveals that before creation, “the Word already existed”, and was “with God.” So, who or what is this pre-existent Word? John’s next words clarify who he is talking about: “the Word was God. As a Jew, John believed in one God. But John is talking about two entities here, God and the Word. Some groups, who teach that Jesus was created, erroneously translate this passage to mean the Word is a god rather than the God. Rendering the phrase as “a god” is a frightful mistranslation because the omission of the indefinite article is common with nouns in the predicative construction.”

Therefore, John, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, tells us:
  • the “Word” existed before creation
  • the “Word” is the Creator who created everything
  • the “Word” is God
Thus far, John has told us that the Word is eternal, created everything, and is God. But he doesn’t tell us whether the Word is a force or a person until verse 14.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14).

John clearly refers here to Jesus. Furthermore, in his epistle he confirms it: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. (1 John 1:1).

John tells us that “nothing exists that he didn’t make.” If nothing existed apart from him, it follows that Jesus couldn’t have been a created being. And according to John, the Word (Jesus) is God.

Jesus Claimed to Be God
He Prefaced His Statements as Though He Was God
He Identified Himself with God’s Own Name (“I Am”)
He Said that He and the Father Were from the Same World
He Talked as Though He Was Equal with God
He Said That He and God Were One

Jesus Demonstrated that He Had the Nature of God:
He Demonstrated Omniscience
He Demonstrated Omnipresence
He Demonstrated Omnibenevolence
He Demonstrated Omnipotence

Jesus Was Worshiped as God by Those Who Knew Him:
The wise men worshiped him from the moment He was born
The leper worshiped Him at his healing
The synagogue ruler worshiped Him
The disciples worshiped him in the boat
The Canaanite woman worshiped Him
The mother of James and John worshiped Him
The blind man worshiped Him at his healing
The women worshiped Him at the empty tomb
The disciples worshiped Him at the Ascension

The Church has always taught this then in the 1800's when the Cults were formed new teachings from little men dressed like quakers on the moon to other insane teachings
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Like the post says, The Church Did Not need to be restored because it Never went Apostate.
The post fails. The abomination of desolation must occur before the second coming. That commenced at the destruction of the temple in 70AD. The authority to administer the gospel was removed from the earth and man was left to himself. The result is the catastrophe we see in the Christian world today. If one looks at the history and the state of Christianity today, it isn't difficult to see the apostasy. Refusing to see it is simply that, a refusal to see the obvious. It doesn't mean it's not there.

1 Tim 4:1 has nothing to do with the apostasy. Christ foretold it, Daniel did too. Paul recognized it as did John. It's too bad that you don't.
Why would God have allowed His people to dwell in darkness for almost two thousand years after Christ
You'd have to ask God that question, but I suspect it was because God's own people killed their God and they did so for the same reason that Cain killed Abel. Cain then became a fugitive and a vagabond. So did the Jews. Men chose to wander in darkness. That's not God's fault. Men chose darkness over light. It is the natural tendency of men to choose darkness. It is because they love money more than God. Men want their rewards now. They don't want to wait until after they die. And, sadly, they will justify their efforts to get it. The end justifies the means.
What good reason could there be for believing self-proclaimed prophets who failed the test of a true prophet (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)
Well, I think your self-proclaimed "test of a true prophet" is self-serving. Moses prophesied that Israel would be gathered by Ephriam but according to some on this board, there is no Ephriam. So, on that basis, Moses failed the "test of a true prophet". And, according to you, there is no apostasy, but Christ said there would be. So, if you are right, Christ is a false prophet.
whose teachings contradict the clear doctrines of the Holy Scriptures
And again, what's clear to you, I don't see anywhere in the scriptures. So, you're arguing from your opinion which is based on an apostate church's teachings. IMO, your teachings contradict the clear doctrines of the Holy Scriptures. At the very beginning of the scriptures, they testify that we are created in the image of God. I can see myself in a mirror. Your doctrine teaches that God can't see himself in a mirror and then we have proof that God is a man and we know who his mother is. He was born just like any other man and yet your doctrine refuses to accept that doctrine. God still remains an incorporeal nothingness.
instead of holding to the truth proclaimed by the Church ( One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church) founded by Christ and led by His Apostles and their successors?
Nothing in the scriptures supports your belief. The apostles had nothing to do with the "One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church". If they did, then they would be apostles and not Bishops. ;)
Why would any intelligent person become a part of a religious movement founded by men whose dishonesty is so apparent?
That would be my question to you.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
The Apostle John’s Testimony: After his resurrection, they saw Jesus with new eyes. And before he left earth, Jesus began to unfold mysteries to them about his identity during the great 40 days. Recalling his Lord’s words, John begins his gospel by revealing who Jesus is:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (John 1: 1-4).

Although scientists now believe the universe had a beginning from nothing, they can’t tell us who was there to start it all. John reveals that before creation, “the Word already existed”, and was “with God.” So, who or what is this pre-existent Word? John’s next words clarify who he is talking about: “the Word was God. As a Jew, John believed in one God. But John is talking about two entities here, God and the Word. Some groups, who teach that Jesus was created, erroneously translate this passage to mean the Word is a god rather than the God. Rendering the phrase as “a god” is a frightful mistranslation because the omission of the indefinite article is common with nouns in the predicative construction.”

Therefore, John, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, tells us:
  • the “Word” existed before creation
  • the “Word” is the Creator who created everything
  • the “Word” is God
Thus far, John has told us that the Word is eternal, created everything, and is God. But he doesn’t tell us whether the Word is a force or a person until verse 14.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14).

John clearly refers here to Jesus. Furthermore, in his epistle he confirms it: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. (1 John 1:1).

John tells us that “nothing exists that he didn’t make.” If nothing existed apart from him, it follows that Jesus couldn’t have been a created being. And according to John, the Word (Jesus) is God.
Maybe you don't understand the argument. No one is questioning whether Jesus is God or not. Jesus directed our worship to his Father who is God and Jesus is Lord.

People worship money. That doesn't make money God.
 
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