The Arminian Lie Is A Gross Deception

SeventhDay

Well-known member
The Bible does teach penal substitution, however there is so much more to it. Back in the early church they didn't have theories. They didn't give labels to things like we do now. Most (all?) of what we have as theories today, cover various aspects of Christ's death on the cross, to include penal substitution. Christus Victor, Ransom Theory, etc.

Paul tells us in Galations that God took our writ of offenses and nailed them to His cross. As early church father's said (a number of them), Jesus paid a penalty we could never hope to pay.
That is not saying that Jesus died in humanity's place as a substitute! God bless you. The fact is that God is not saving the old man! God bless you. :)
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
:) God does not need His anger soothed? Why does He ask for atonement? The meaning of atonement is to soothe wrath through an offering.
Gen 8:21 after the flood, Noah made an offering to God and it says "The Lord smelled the soothing aroma."
No, the meaning of the atonement is that God loves humanity and has delivered humanity from sin. It is not the old humanity but the new spiritual humanity. God does not change the law "that the soul that sins shall die". God has put away the old man and replace him with a new spiritual nature. God bless you. :)
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
Paul is speaking to the one who has been regenerated and called to God not the old man buried with Christ in his death. The new spiritual man is reconciling himself to God because of grace of faith. If God is not reconciling humanity to God then man can not reconcile themselves back to God. However, dead men can do nothing! God bless you. :)
before you are reconciled to God, there is only the old nature, Paul calls to those people to be reconciled.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
You do not have an old man anymore because God has put him away! :)
I have been taught for years in a variety of churches and by TV an radio and online teachers that there is a fight between the old and new natures. The old nature is to be considered dead, once you are in Christ, but people still walk in fleshly, old man, ways

This also what I see in the Bible and old man struggling to be in control
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
I have been taught for years in a variety of churches and by TV an radio and online teachers that there is a fight between the old and new natures. The old nature is to be considered dead, once you are in Christ, but people still walk in fleshly, old man, ways

This also what I see in the Bible and old man struggling to be in control
The old man could not defeat his carnal nature and did not have a spiritual nature. However, the new spiritual man does have a spiritual nature and through the Spirit of Christ can defeat the carnal mind but he must reckon the old man dead because he is dead. The fight is between the spirit and the flesh not between the old man and spiritual man because the old man is dead. Since we still have the memories of the old man and how he thinks by giving into the carnal mind we must identify with the Christ in us and reckon the old man dead or we will live like he is alive and seeking his own way. In Christ we are not under the law of sin and death like the old man but we are under the law of the Spirit and life so we must walk in the Spirit. God bless you. :)
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
before you are reconciled to God, there is only the old nature, Paul calls to those people to be reconciled.
It is the new spiritual man that must reconcile him self on to God because he has the Spirit of God in him. The old man is dead and has no spiritual consciousness because he is not a new spiritual creation nor has the Spirit indwelling him. The old man is dead with Christ in his death and we must reckon that so through our faith in Christ.. God wants our trust in Christ or he will be under the law of sin and death. God bless you. :)
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
I have heard this before but it does not align with Christian life in reality.
How many identify with the Christ within and trust in Christ and have a spiritual walk? God bless you. :)
I have been taught for years in a variety of churches and by TV an radio and online teachers that there is a fight between the old and new natures. The old nature is to be considered dead, once you are in Christ, but people still walk in fleshly, old man, ways

This also what I see in the Bible and old man struggling to be in control
It is actually the flesh trying to have control and doing a good job of it! Why? Could it be we are not aware of the Christ within and walk like the old man? Thus, it is important to consider the kind of man we are and walk accordingly. Through the Spirit we must align our thinking and actions! God bless you. :)
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
The old man could not defeat his carnal nature and did not have a spiritual nature. However, the new spiritual man does have a spiritual nature and through the Spirit of Christ can defeat the carnal mind but he must reckon the old man dead because he is dead. The fight is between the spirit and the flesh not between the old man and spiritual man because the old man is dead. Since we still have the memories of the old man and how he thinks by giving into the carnal mind we must identify with the Christ in us and reckon the old man dead or we will live like he is alive and seeking his own way. In Christ we are not under the law of sin and death like the old man but we are under the law of the Spirit and life so we must walk in the Spirit. God bless you. :)
the old man is the carnal nature, so for me it makes no sense to say "the old man could not defeat the carnal nature"
Maybe you can articulate what you are trying to express?
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
the old man is the carnal nature, so for me it makes no sense to say "the old man could not defeat the carnal nature"
Maybe you can articulate what you are trying to express?
If one is carnal then one lives out of the carnal mind and that is what the old man did. However, it is not the same for the new spiritual man is it? God bless you. :)
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
Walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh
For a Christian both options remain
For the spiritual man there are no options! Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. God bless you. :)
 

Manfred

Well-known member
The scriptures do not teach that God needs to be soothed nor does it teach penal substitution.
Joh_3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom_5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
Joh_3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom_5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Does not state that God need his wrath soothed! God bless you!
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
No, the meaning of the atonement is that God loves humanity and has delivered humanity from sin. It is not the old humanity but the new spiritual humanity. God does not change the law "that the soul that sins shall die". God has put away the old man and replace him with a new spiritual nature. God bless you. :)
I don't understand your position. You read that the Bible says God smelled the soothing aroma, and your response is "No."
How do you respond to scripture with just an emphatic "No."
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
I don't understand your position. You read that the Bible says God smelled the soothing aroma, and your response is "No."
How do you respond to scripture with just an emphatic "No."
Dose God actually smell? Does God have senses like man.? Can we affect God by what we do or say? Who is at work in us to will and do of God's good pleasure. God is transcendent and in God's dealing with man God condescends to our level! God is indicating that he is pleased for our sake and brought us to a certain level of understanding but God is condescending to our level. God affects us and not the other way around. The just shall live by faith but who provides the faith so we can respond to God? Man is not even his own thus how can one influence God. God influences man but God's emotions are not influenced. God can indeed show emotions. "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption." This is my son on whom I am well pleased. Listen to him." Who influenced the Son? Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. God bless you.
 
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Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
Dose God actually smell? Does God have senses like man.? Can we affect God by what we do or say? Who is at work in us to will and do of God's good pleasure. God is transcendent and in God's dealing with man God condescends to our level! God is indicating that he is pleased for our sake and brought us to a certain level of understanding but God is condescending to our level. God affects us and not the other way around. The just shall live by faith but who provides the faith so we can respond to God? Man is not even his own thus how can one influence God. God influences man but God's emotions are not influenced. God can indeed show emotions. "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption." This is my son on whom I am well pleased. Listen to him." Who influenced the Son? Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. God bless you.
Lots of ideas there in your post, but what about the one I posted that God smelled Noah's sacrifice and it was a soothing aroma.?
Why "soothed"?
 
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