The Arminians powerless Jesus.

Kampioen said:
So then a person is already saved by the time they come to hear out the gospel?
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No! Salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

Some people God makes born again, when they hear the gospel, but this, on its own, does not save them. They then, as an immediate result of having been born again, repent and believe in Jesus Christ. It is not until they have believed in Jesus Christ that they can be said to be saved.
 
David1701 said:
No! Salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

Some people God makes born again, when they hear the gospel, but this, on its own, does not save them. They then, as an immediate result of having been born again, repent and believe in Jesus Christ. It is not until they have believed in Jesus Christ that they can be said to be saved.
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A person can be born again and not saved ? How does that fit John 2 unless one is born again they cannot see the kingdom of God ?
 
civic said:
A person can be born again and not saved ? How does that fit John 2 unless one is born again they cannot see the kingdom of God ?
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It's the difference between logical order and chronological order. I picture it like being given an ornament with different coloured segments, in specific order. You receive the ornament all at one time; but, there is a logical order within the ornament.
 
David1701 said:
It's the difference between logical order and chronological order. I picture it like being given an ornament with different coloured segments, in specific order. You receive the ornament all at one time; but, there is a logical order within the ornament.
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If we only talked about the Temporal Order, and how these things happen basically the same time; places like CARM Forums would dry up...
 
fltom said:
Compatibilism is a = not a logic

Free but determined
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Free: in the sense of free to act according to your nature.

Determined: in the sense that God works all things according to the counsel of his own will.

This freedom is entirely compatible with this determination.
 
David1701 said:
Free: in the sense of free to act according to your nature.

Determined: in the sense that God works all things according to the counsel of his own will.

This freedom is entirely compatible with this determination.
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Free to act as you have been determined to act

and every thought action, deed has been determined

its an oxymoron
 
Dizerner said:
The Holy Spirit can give lost people abilities and desires they don't have by preceding grace.

Jesus said, "While you have the light, believe on the light." This shows the light came externally first then it enabled belief in the light.

This grace enables them to overcome their sin nature temporarily in the valley of decision, the Spirit always comes with the Word.

It's also important to acknowledge the Greek word "draw" is actually used in the LXX in a sense that clearly does not mean force.
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Here a reminder invest in something worthwhile


www.sdmorrison.org

The Book to End Penal Substitutionary Atonement - Stephen D. Morrison

Penal substitutionary atonement is a theory which attempts to explain the meaning and purpose of Christ’s death, how Jesus’ death saves and what it means for the world. It’s a theory which I have argued against openly and often, I’ve […]
www.sdmorrison.org www.sdmorrison.org
 
civic said:
Here a reminder invest in something worthwhile


www.sdmorrison.org

The Book to End Penal Substitutionary Atonement - Stephen D. Morrison

Penal substitutionary atonement is a theory which attempts to explain the meaning and purpose of Christ’s death, how Jesus’ death saves and what it means for the world. It’s a theory which I have argued against openly and often, I’ve […]
www.sdmorrison.org www.sdmorrison.org
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That would be Atonement, justice and peace: the message of the cross and the mission of the church

by Darrin W. Snyder Belousek

Its available in logos
 
fltom said:
Free to act as you have been determined to act

and every thought action, deed has been determined

its an oxymoron
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Only if your definition of freedom, is freedom from God's sovereignty over his creation (for "freedom", in this definition, read "rebellion").
 
David1701 said:
Only if your definition of freedom, is freedom from God's sovereignty over his creation (for "freedom", in this definition, read "rebellion").
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Nope not only does

Sovereignty not mean the meticulous determination of all things

determination is the opposite of free will
 
fltom said:
Nope not only does

Sovereignty not mean the meticulous determination of all things

determination is the opposite of free will
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If nothing were determined, then everything would be random. If everything were random, then none of us would be able to survive.

The will is always determined by something outside itself; that is the nature of the will. It is determined by our desires, knowledge, understanding, etc.; but, above all, by what we desire the most. We ALWAYS do what we desire the most, which means that the will is a slave to the strongest desire, at any given moment. Our desires are also determined, by many interconnected factors.

Libertarian Free Will is science fiction. It not only does not exist, it CANNOT exist.
 
David1701 said:
If nothing were determined, then everything would be random. If everything were random, then none of us would be able to survive.

The will is always determined by something outside itself; that is the nature of the will. It is determined by our desires, knowledge, understanding, etc.; but, above all, by what we desire the most. We ALWAYS do what we desire the most, which means that the will is a slave to the strongest desire, at any given moment. Our desires are also determined, by many interconnected factors.

Libertarian Free Will is science fiction. It not only does not exist, it CANNOT exist.
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and in compatibilism the will is determined by God

so compatibilism is a fiction
 
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