The Athanasian Creed

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The Lutherans use the Athanasian Creed as one of their confessionals:

The Athanasian Creed​


In use since the 6th century, the Athanasian Creed is concerned with delineating the specific nature of each person in the Holy Trinity. Also distinguishing it from the other two creeds we typically recite – the Nicene Creed and the Apostles’ Creed – is the Athanasian Creed’s inclusion of statements condemning anyone who would disagree with it.

Whoever desires to be saved must, above all, hold the catholic faith.
Whoever does not keep it whole and undefiled will without doubt perish eternally.
And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance.
For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Holy Spirit is another.
But the Godhead of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit: the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, the Holy Spirit uncreated; the Father infinite, the Son infinite, the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, the Holy Spirit eternal.
And yet there are not three Eternals, but one Eternal, just as there are not three Uncreated or three Infinites, but one Uncreated and one Infinite.
In the same way, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God;
And yet there are not three Gods, but one God.
So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord;
And yet there are not three Lords, but one Lord.
Just as we are compelled by the Christian truth to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so also are we prohibited by the catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.
The Father is not made nor created nor begotten by anyone.
The Son is neither made nor created, but begotten of the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, neither made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding.
Thus, there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And in this Trinity none is before after another; none is greater or less than another;
But the whole three persons are coeternal with each other and coequal, so that in all things, as has been stated above, the Trinity in Unity and Unity in Trinity is to be worshiped.
Therefore, whoever desires to be saved must think thus about the Trinity.
But it is also necessary for everlasting salvation that one faithfully believe the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, it is the right faith that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is at the same time both God and man.
He is God, begotten from the substance of the Father before all ages; and He is man, born from the substance of His mother in this age: perfect God and perfect man, composed of a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father with respect to His divinity, less than the Father with respect to His humanity.
Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ: one, however, not by the conversion of the divinity into flesh, but by the assumption of the humanity into God; one altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ,
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead, ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the living and the dead.

At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


Do Lutherans believe they have to believe the Athanasian Creed faithfully--or they cannot be saved?

If so--then how do they comport faith alone theology--with all being judged according to their own deeds--and that for life or damnation?
 

Thekla

New Member
We agree with it. Those who have done good believe in Christ. Those who do not believe in Christ do not do good. When we sin, we confess them and ask Jesus to forgive us. He forgives us and takes them upon ourselves, so those who believe in Christ do not carry those sins.

Those who do not believe in Jesus being God, may do good deeds but they deny Christ when they do them they are guilty of much sin.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
We agree with it. Those who have done good believe in Christ. Those who do not believe in Christ do not do good. When we sin, we confess them and ask Jesus to forgive us. He forgives us and takes them upon ourselves, so those who believe in Christ do not carry those sins.

Those who do not believe in Jesus being God, may do good deeds but they deny Christ when they do them they are guilty of much sin.
Do you mean that Jesus takes our sins upon Himself, not ourselves?
 

Thekla

New Member
Whoops, that was a big mistake, I meant he takes them upon himself. Thanks for pointing out my error.
 

Jack Hammer

Member
We agree with it. Those who have done good believe in Christ. Those who do not believe in Christ do not do good. When we sin, we confess them and ask Jesus to forgive us. He forgives us and takes them upon ourselves, so those who believe in Christ do not carry those sins.

Those who do not believe in Jesus being God, may do good deeds but they deny Christ when they do them they are guilty of much sin.
Show me where Jesus claimed to be God. If he truly was God I'm sure he would have said so - somewhere.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
We agree with it. Those who have done good believe in Christ.

That connects "done good" as being integral to belief in Christ. I agree with that notion, but it's deadly to faith alone theology.

The testimony of the Athanasian Creed which does not agree with faith alone theology ---is the connection of doing good--and eternal life:

At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And
those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


Faith alone theology excludes all works in obtaining eternal life. It preaches one obtains salvation--then does the works--and cannot brook any idea of works as a preexisting connection to those who receive salvation.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Unbelievers cannot do any good deeds.
This is most certainly true....as Hebrews says "For without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God." As we have stated umpteen times on here, believers do good works IN salvation, not FOR salvation.
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Unbelievers cannot do any good deeds.

The point of dialog is the references to the Biblical verses found in the Athanasian Creed:

At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


So--how do Lutherans mesh their theology of faith alone--which preaches one receives eternal life independent of any works--with the testimony of the Athanasian Creed--which testifies one is judged according to their works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

That defies faith alone theology.

And further yet--the Athanasian Creed then affirms--if one does not "firmly" believe that--they cannot be saved. A double whammy for Lutherans.

How can Lutherans possibly be saved, if that is true? (the incredible thing is--the Athanasian Creed is a Lutheran confession)!!!!!!

Wow. Speak of shooting one's own foot.....
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
This is most certainly true....as Hebrews says "For without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God." As we have stated umpteen times on here, believers do good works IN salvation, not FOR salvation.

Bonnie--that's just the difference between Lutheran theology--and Biblical theology--is it not?

Please do examine the evidence presented:

At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


Where does it state those receive eternal life outside of their works? Where?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Bonnie--that's just the difference between Lutheran theology--and Biblical theology--is it not?

Please do examine the evidence presented:

At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


Where does it state those receive eternal life outside of their works? Where?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Nope. "For it is by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT BY WORKS, SO NO ONE MAY BOAST. For we are GOD's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

What does being "created IN Christ Jesus for good works" mean?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
What does being "created IN Christ Jesus for good works" mean?

It means if the Athanasian Creed is correct---Lutheran theology can't be saved:

At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
It means if the Athanasian Creed is correct---Lutheran theology can't be saved:

At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.
That is a non-answer, dberrie-isn't it?

What does being "created IN Christ Jesus for good works" mean?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
That is a non-answer, dberrie-isn't it?

What does being "created IN Christ Jesus for good works" mean?

It means just what was posted:

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life,
and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


So, Bonnie--can you be saved in accordance with what the Athanasian Creed declares? That is a confession of your church?

IOW--you claim one is saved independent of works--the Athanasian Creed testifies all will be judged in accordance with their works--after death--and that for "eternal life" or "eternal fire".

How do you explain that? How can you be saved, in accordance with the Athanasian Creed's testimony above?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
It means just what was posted:

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life,
and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


So, Bonnie--can you be saved in accordance with what the Athanasian Creed declares? That is a confession of your church?

IOW--you claim one is saved independent of works--the Athanasian Creed testifies all will be judged in accordance with their works--after death--and that for "eternal life" or "eternal fire".

How do you explain that? How can you be saved, in accordance with the Athanasian Creed's testimony above?
I am asking you what you think "created in Christ Jesus for good works" MEANS--in your own words, please?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I am asking you what you think "created in Christ Jesus for good works" MEANS--in your own words, please?

I believe it means all will stand before God and be judged according to their works. That's the measure they were created for--and that's the measure they will be judged by.

So--could you please explain for us how you fit Lutheran theology into the Athanasian Creed here?

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


Bonnie--the very confessional creed of Lutherans ---condemns them to a state of being unable to be saved.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I believe it means all will stand before God and be judged according to their works. That's the measure they were created for--and that's the measure they will be judged by.

So--could you please explain for us how you fit Lutheran theology into the Athanasian Creed here?

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


Bonnie--the very confessional creed of Lutherans ---condemns them to a state of being unable to be saved.
Could you explain in your own words what you think "created IN Christ Jesus for good works" means?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Could you explain in your own words what you think "created IN Christ Jesus for good works" means?

Could you explain--in your own words--how you mesh Lutheran theology--with the Athanasian Creed?

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


Bonnie--do you faithfully believe--all men will be judged according to works--after death--and that for eternal life--or eternal fire? Can you be saved?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Could you explain--in your own words--how you mesh Lutheran theology--with the Athanasian Creed?

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


Bonnie--do you faithfully believe--all men will be judged according to works--after death--and that for eternal life--or eternal fire? Can you be saved?
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
 
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