The Athanasian Creed

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Then He should be believed:

....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.


The question being--how does one fit that into Lutheran theology?

Think of that--Lutherans having a confession which defies their own beliefs! And that--from the Savior Himself.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Then He should be believed:

....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.


The question being--how does one fit that into Lutheran theology?

Think of that--Lutherans having a confession which defies their own beliefs! And that--from the Savior Himself.
100 percent correlation
All believers have done good

Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Could you explain--in your own words--how you mesh Lutheran theology--with the Athanasian Creed?

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


Bonnie--do you faithfully believe--all men will be judged according to works--after death--and that for eternal life--or eternal fire? Can you be saved?
What does being "created IN Christ Jesus for good works" mean, in your own words? Answer that correctly and you will see how it "meshes' with the Athanasian Creed--won't you?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
100 percent correlation
All believers have done good

Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Because the "good" we do is done IN salvation, not FOR salvation. And those who believe and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, great and free, HAVE done good. They are then able to bear fruit pleasing to God. Simple--except for those in works-righteous, Christ-dishonoring cults. They have been so indoctrinated to believe that their works help to save them, that they just cannot conceive of true salvation being "the gift of God." What it boils down to, is that they do not trust in Jesus Christ and HIS works to save us fully....no, they want to be in contro,l so they add their own imperfect keeping of God's laws into the mix, as if will somehow "impress" God....but it won't. James says that those who keep the whole law but stumble in one point are guilty of ALL of it--which puts us right back at square one--doesn't it?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Because the "good" we do is done IN salvation, not FOR salvation.

As we say here in the South--that dog just ain't gonna hunt.

And there is a reason why:--because the Athanasian Creed makes no such point--and changing the order of arrangement won't change that.
It's the ole Lutheran dog and pony trick.

Please do show us where the verses claim the works were judged after the salvation occurs:


Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.



That states all will be judged according to works--after death--INTO eternal life or eternal fire--as a final judgment.

Bonnie--that defies Lutheran theology--and dog and pony tricks won't change that.


Hebrews 10:36---King James Version
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
100 percent correlation
All believers have done good

Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

That only connects belief and doing good as integral components.

The Athanasian Creed is even more explicit--it connects those who have done good--with eternal life:

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


That connects good works with eternal life.

How does that compare with faith alone theology--which excludes all works in obtaining eternal life? And more yet--it then states those who do not believe that doctrine---cannot be saved.

So--total that cost up. The Lutherans have a Creed which condemns their own theology as among those who cannot be saved!
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
That only connects belief and doing good as integral components.

The Athanasian Creed is even more explicit--it connects those who have done good--with eternal life:

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


That connects good works with eternal life.

How does that compare with faith alone theology--which excludes all works in obtaining eternal life? And more yet--it then states those who do not believe that doctrine---cannot be saved.

So--total that cost up. The Lutherans have a Creed which condemns their own theology as among those who cannot be saved!
easy

A God-given Faith causes (leads to) good works and Eternal life (and many other things) is true
A God-given Faith and good works causes (leads to) Eternal life is false

If anyone inherits eternal life it is true that that have a God given faith and.....

Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17).
Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20).
The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6).
The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10).
Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27),
love their brothers (1 John 3:14),
obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14),
do the will of God (Matthew 12:50),
abide in God's Word (John 8:31),
keep God's Word (John 17:6),
do good works (Ephesians 2:10),
and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14)

it become more apparent with every one of your posts that you do not understand the characteristics of a God-given faith :
Can you clearly answer this simple question
Is the faith that God gives dead and useless or living and effective?
 
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Redeemed

Well-known member
Because the "good" we do is done IN salvation, not FOR salvation. And those who believe and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, great and free, HAVE done good. They are then able to bear fruit pleasing to God. Simple--except for those in works-righteous, Christ-dishonoring cults. They have been so indoctrinated to believe that their works help to save them, that they just cannot conceive of true salvation being "the gift of God." What it boils down to, is that they do not trust in Jesus Christ and HIS works to save us fully....no, they want to be in contro,l so they add their own imperfect keeping of God's laws into the mix, as if will somehow "impress" God....but it won't. James says that those who keep the whole law but stumble in one point are guilty of ALL of it--which puts us right back at square one--doesn't it?
One of the ways I put it is that some people think that they have to help God out. That somehow someway if they get their hands in it the end result will be better. On the other hand I think God's in the salvation business and he knows exactly what he's doing and doesn't need my help. I believe when he created us out of the dust he knew right then how he was going to save us. I really don't believe there's any way we can improve on God's plan. It's rather foolhardy to think we could. Not to mention dangerous.

If any part of my salvation depended upon me I know I'd mess it up. Ask anybody that knows me. When I got saved no one could believe it. I had a distinctive vehicle at a time it was in 1956 Ford F1 50 pickup. I had it painted bright orange and called it the orange crate. After I Became saved I would pull-up In the orange crate and my friends would say that's his truck but that's not him. They were right I was a new creation. I didn't wake up one day and say "hey you know what I think I'll get saved Today." Nope it was God's plan He put everything in order. All I did was believe. I believed That Jesus was who He said He was and He was going to do what he said he was going to. He's never disappointed me. Salvation it's all about Jesus... That's what I'm talking about!
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Can you clearly answer this simple question
Is the faith that God gives dead and useless or living and effective?

As we have already discussed--the gifts of God are good gifts.

What we do with those gifts determine whether they are "living", "effective", "saving" etc.

So--how can Lutheran theology be true--and the Athanasian Creed be true also?

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
As we have already discussed--the gifts of God are good gifts.

What we do with those gifts determine whether they are "living", "effective", "saving" etc.

So--how can Lutheran theology be true--and the Athanasian Creed be true also?

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.
and once again :
you did not answer the direct question:;

"Can you clearly answer this simple question
Is the faith that God gives dead and useless or living and effective?"

Is your answer that the a God -given faith is lifeless until we give it life?
and it is useless (has no effect) until we give it a use?

IOW: Faith from God is a big nothing burger and has no effect on those those who receive it
 

Bonnie

Super Member
and once again :
you did not answer the direct question:;

"Can you clearly answer this simple question
Is the faith that God gives dead and useless or living and effective?"

Is your answer that the a God -given faith is lifeless until we give it life?
and it is useless (has no effect) until we give it a use?

IOW: Faith from God is a big nothing burger and has no effect on those those who receive it
Good post, Thess...it is ludicrous to think God needs us to make His gift of faith alive....God does not need us for ANYTHING.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
easy

A God-given Faith causes (leads to) good works and Eternal life (and many other things) is true

The gifts God gives man should lead to good works--there isn't anyone arguing that. (and living faith leads to GOD'S Grace unto eternal life--if the Athanasian Creed is to be believed)

The Athanasian Creed testifies that God's grace unto life-- will be determined in accordance with those works--as to eternal life:

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


How does one fit that into Lutheran theology? How can Lutherans be saved unless they believe that? And not only believe that--but believe it "faithfully and firmly"? That's a hard and fast connection--and asking questions about what kind of gifts God gives won't change that.

Care to address the Creed above?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
One of the ways I put it is that some people think that they have to help God out.

Could you explain for us how God judging all men in accordance with their works--and that for eternal life--or eternal fire--is helping God out?

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


That might be the usual claims people make when the scriptures do not align with their theology--and they have no where else to go--but it does nothing to change what the scriptures testify to.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
The gifts God gives man should lead to good works--there isn't anyone arguing that. (and living faith leads to GOD'S Grace unto eternal life--if the Athanasian Creed is to be believed)

The Athanasian Creed testifies that God's grace unto life-- will be determined in accordance with those works--as to eternal life:

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


How does one fit that into Lutheran theology? How can Lutherans be saved unless they believe that? And not only believe that--but believe it "faithfully and firmly"? That's a hard and fast connection--and asking questions about what kind of gifts God gives won't change that.

Care to address the Creed above?
if you believe God gives the gift of a lifeless, useless, demon-type of faith
then you will interpret the meaning of Scriptures differently than
those who believe God gives the gift of a living, effective, and Godly-type of faith .

So OWN the implications of your believe:
EMBRACE what you believe and proclaim it at the top of your voice

"I Dberrie believe the faith that is a gift from God is DEAD and USLESS; like the faith of demons!"

Say it!!
Don't hide
SAY IT!!
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Could you explain for us how God judging all men in accordance with their works--and that for eternal life--or eternal fire--is helping God out?

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


That might be the usual claims people make when the scriptures do not align with their theology--and they have no where else to go--but it does nothing to change what the scriptures testify to.
How is this claim?
John 3:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
if you believe God gives the gift of a lifeless, useless, demon-type of faith
then you will interpret the meaning of Scriptures differently than
those who believe God gives the gift of a living, effective, and Godly-type of faith .

So OWN the implications of your believe:
EMBRACE what you believe and proclaim it at the top of your voice

"I Dberrie believe the faith that is a gift from God is DEAD and USLESS; like the faith of demons!"

Say it!!
Don't hide
SAY IT!!
Excellent point, Thess! Demons know and believe in one God. Does not do them any good--does it?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
The gifts God gives man should lead to good works--there isn't anyone arguing that. (and living faith leads to GOD'S Grace unto eternal life--if the Athanasian Creed is to be believed)

The Athanasian Creed testifies that God's grace unto life-- will be determined in accordance with those works--as to eternal life:

Athanasian Creed

.....At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.


How does one fit that into Lutheran theology? How can Lutherans be saved unless they believe that? And not only believe that--but believe it "faithfully and firmly"? That's a hard and fast connection--and asking questions about what kind of gifts God gives won't change that.

Care to address the Creed above?

Lutherans?
 
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