The Athanasian Creed

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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Athanasian Creed


39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

The Lutherans have the Athanasian Creed is one of the three ecumenical creeds--and is authoritative in the Lutheran church.

My question--how do the Lutherans fit this portion of the Athanasian Creed into their theology? Do Lutherans believe all men will be judged according to their deeds--and that for life or damnation?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
A creed is just a statement of faith. Most churches and even cults calling themselves churches have those.

this is pretty old, but still relevant:

 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
A creed is just a statement of faith. Most churches and even cults calling themselves churches have those.

My question for the Lutherans--is this part of the Lutheran faith?

Athanasian Creed
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

How could that be true--and faith alone theology also be true?
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
My question for the Lutherans--is this part of the Lutheran faith?

Athanasian Creed
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

How could that be true--and faith alone theology also be true?
That's an illogical question, especially since it has been explained to you numerous times through passages like Romans 3, Ephesians 2, etc.

For example, “21. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,22. even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and upon all those that believe. For there is no distinction; 23. for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, 24. being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25. whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, for a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of the sins having previously committed, in the forbearance of God,” (Rom 3:21-25, EMTV)

So the sum is:

Being justified before God unto eternal life by faith in Christ alone doesn't exclude works. The works done are a consequence of being justified by God through faith alone unto etenal life.

The ongoing works righteousness error is:

So long as a person continues to ignore the God given perfect immediate context of Scripture he will continue to misunderstand Scripture and then reason within himself along these lines, "I have a right or perfect understanding of Scripture and it mentions works, therefore no matter what Scripture says anywhere else being justified before God unto eternal life through faith in the true Christ alone must be an error. God will not justify me, the ungodly, because of Christ through faith in Him because I will be justified by presenting my sin to God as my righteousness."

God calls all men everywhere to believe in the true Christ and to repent of the foolishnes of a works righteousness apart from the true Christ unto eternal life error.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said: My question for the Lutherans--is this part of the Lutheran faith?

Athanasian Creed
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

How could that be true--and faith alone theology also be true?

That's an illogical question,

But everything which defies Lutheran theology is illogical, out of context, misunderstood, etc.

For example, “21. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law has been revealed,

John5:28-29 isn't part of the Mosaic Law.

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So the sum is:
Being justified before God unto eternal life by faith in Christ alone doesn't exclude works.

Then you wouldn't mind listing the works which are necessary for eternal life to occur?

God calls all men everywhere to believe in the true Christ and to repent of the foolishnes of a works righteousness apart from the true Christ unto eternal life error.

Would this be an example of that?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said: My question for the Lutherans--is this part of the Lutheran faith?

Athanasian Creed
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

How could that be true--and faith alone theology also be true?



But everything which defies Lutheran theology is illogical, out of context, misunderstood, etc.
The above is a silly question since this isn't the first time you've brought it up. Just ask yourself if the Athanasian Creed is in the Book Of Concord? We both know it is, just as we both know that your question has been answered before. If you still find the answers previously given to you unsatisfactory then read the Book Of Concord, or accept that you will not find any answer satisfactory to your current Mormon beliefs.
John5:28-29 isn't part of the Mosaic Law.

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
That citation is again one that is being used out of context. The way that you can know that it is being used out of context is to ask yourself the question, Do not marvel at what?

What is the answer according to the immediate context? “24. "Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.25. Most assuredly I say to you, that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those having heard shall live. 26. For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27. and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.” (Joh 5:24-27, EMTV)

Marvel not that the one who hears the true Jesus and believe in Him who sent Jesus has eternal life. It is has eternal life rather than will have eternal life. The ones which have eternal life through faith in the true Jesus will not come into judgement.

Do you believe in the true Jesus? Do you hear the true Jesus and believe in Him who sent the true Jesus? If you do then why don't you think Jesus was telling the truth? Why do you think to your own eternal condemnation if you don't repent that those who hear the true Jesus and believe in Him who sent the true Jesus do not have eternal life and will come into judgement?

Surely you recognize that those who have eternal life will necessarily be raised unto eternal life and those that do not have eternal life will necessarily be raised unto damnation.
Then you wouldn't mind listing the works which are necessary for eternal life to occur?
That is another misinterpretation since not excluding works in the life of the believer in the true Jesus is not the same as works being, "necessary for eternal life to occur."
Would this be an example of that?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
No it is not because you are misinterpreting my statement and trying to use the passage from Matthew in an out of context manner.

I wrote of the foolishness of works righteousness unto eternal life apart from the true Christ. Those who have been united with the true Christ in their baptism into Him are forgiven their sins through faith.

Why don't you try posting the context of the passage you cited from Matthew 16 in your next reply?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The above is a silly question since this isn't the first time you've brought it up.

Why are things "silly"--because they have been discussed before?

Just ask yourself if the Athanasian Creed is in the Book Of Concord? We both know it is, just as we both know that your question has been answered before.

If it is in the Book of Concord--then all the more reason to explain why it can't be fit into Lutheran theology:

Athanasian Creed
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

If you still find the answers previously given to you unsatisfactory then read the Book Of Concord, or accept that you will not find any answer satisfactory to your current Mormon beliefs.

LDS beliefs have nothing to do with the Lutherans not being able to fit part of the Athanasian Creed into their theology.

That citation is again one that is being used out of context.

But isn't that the pat claim, "out of context"--which is claimed by the Lutherans--whenever scriptures are quoted which violate Lutheran theology?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Isn't that where the authors of the Athanasian got their theology from--as to the questioned portion of the Athanasian Creed?
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Athanasian Creed



39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

The Lutherans have the Athanasian Creed is one of the three ecumenical creeds--and is authoritative in the Lutheran church.

My question--how do the Lutherans fit this portion of the Athanasian Creed into their theology? Do Lutherans believe all men will be judged according to their deeds--and that for life or damnation?
Isn't that the same thing the Mormons believe?
If not how does it differ?
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Why are things "silly"--because they have been discussed before?
Because you have asked the question multiple times and received the answer multiple times. However, like in your latest reply you literally and mentally snip the answer and then post as if you didn't receive the answer or that you didn't find the answer satisfactory to your current Mormon beliefs.
LDS beliefs have nothing to do with the Lutherans not being able to fit part of the Athanasian

If it is in the Book of Concord--then all the more reason to explain why it can't be fit into Lutheran theology: Creed into their theology.
That is a demonstrably false claim. For example, it is demonstrably false through the historical context of the creed and the content of the creed. The creed was written because of a dispute about the Trinity. It wasn't written because of a dispute about judgement or works.

Even if a person is ignorant of that historical context the content of the creed make it plain.

"And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance...

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting...

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."
https://boc.confident.faith/ec-atc-0001

And so it is plain through the words of the creed that the true God is being proclaimed. The one sentence which reflects the statement in John 5 which mentions judgement and works is used in the same context as that of John 5, namely, that the true Jesus has life within himself and was given authority to judge, see John 5 or what you snipped from your latest reply.

Your replies in this thread in accordance with the Mormon religion you have omitted, snipped, and denied the context regarding the true Christ from the creed and your interpretation of John 5. Again, see what you snipped from this post.

But isn't that the pat claim, "out of context"--which is claimed by the Lutherans--whenever scriptures are quoted which violate Lutheran theology?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Isn't that where the authors of the Athanasian got their theology from--as to the questioned portion of the Athanasian Creed?
It wouldn't seem like a pat claim to you if that wasn't your pat practice. Well, that and your practice of ignoring and denying that you've received an answer and then posting the same thing as if you didn't receive an answer. From the post to which you replied:

"That citation is again one that is being used out of context. The way that you can know that it is being used out of context is to ask yourself the question, Do not marvel at what?

What is the answer according to the immediate context? “24. "Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.25. Most assuredly I say to you, that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those having heard shall live. 26. For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27. and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.” (Joh 5:24-27, EMTV)

Marvel not that the one who hears the true Jesus and believe in Him who sent Jesus has eternal life. It is has eternal life rather than will have eternal life. The ones which have eternal life through faith in the true Jesus will not come into judgement.

Do you believe in the true Jesus? Do you hear the true Jesus and believe in Him who sent the true Jesus? If you do then why don't you think Jesus was telling the truth? Why do you think to your own eternal condemnation if you don't repent that those who hear the true Jesus and believe in Him who sent the true Jesus do not have eternal life and will come into judgement?

Surely you recognize that those who have eternal life will necessarily be raised unto eternal life and those that do not have eternal life will necessarily be raised unto damnation." https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-athanasian-creed.7776/post-555661
 

Tertiumquid

Well-known member
Because you have asked the question multiple times and received the answer multiple times. However, like in your latest reply you literally and mentally snip the answer and then post as if you didn't receive the answer or that you didn't find the answer satisfactory to your current Mormon beliefs.
This would make a good poem:

Because you have asked the question multiple times...
and received the answer multiple times...
literally and mentally snipping answers,
then say you didn't receive the answer...
or that you didn't find the answer satisfactory...

I can hear Willima Shatner reciting it, or maybe Steven Wright.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Because you have asked the question multiple times and received the answer multiple times. However, like in your latest reply you literally and mentally snip the answer and then post as if you didn't receive the answer or that you didn't find the answer satisfactory to your current Mormon beliefs.

Such as this?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That is a demonstrably false claim. For example, it is demonstrably false through the historical context of the creed and the content of the creed. The creed was written because of a dispute about the Trinity. It wasn't written because of a dispute about judgement or works.

For whatever one believes the creed was written for--the Athanasian Creed contains this testimony:

Athanasian Creed
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

That connects works with "life everlasting". Anathema to faith alone theology.

And so it is plain through the words of the creed that the true God is being proclaimed. The one sentence which reflects the statement in John 5 which mentions judgement and works is used in the same context as that of John 5, namely, that the true Jesus has life within himself and was given authority to judge....

And that all men shall give account of their works-- they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

Again--anathema to faith alone theology.

Your replies in this thread in accordance with the Mormon religion you have omitted, snipped, and denied the context regarding the true Christ from the creed and your interpretation of John 5. Again, see what you snipped from this post.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have no problem with John5:28-29. It violates faith alone theology. And it was the "true Christ" which testified in John5:28-29.

It wouldn't seem like a pat claim to you if that wasn't your pat practice. Well, that and your practice of ignoring and denying that you've received an answer and then posting the same thing as if you didn't receive an answer. From the post to which you replied:

I guess you will have to forgive me--I never thought of a taint so!!! response as convincing nor compelling.

"That citation is again one that is being used out of context.

Of course it is. Isn't that the pat answer of the Lutherans whenever scriptures are posted which defy faith alone theology?

2 John 9---King James Version
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Isn't that the same thing the Mormons believe?
If not how does it differ?

It's exactly what the LDS believe and teach--it's the witness of Christ Himself:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

My question is--how does one fit that into Lutheran theology?
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
It's exactly what the LDS believe and teach--it's the witness of Christ Himself:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

My question is--how does one fit that into Lutheran theology?
So citing the Creed is a ritual and works custom.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
So citing the Creed is a ritual and works custom.

For me--it's not citing the creed I question--but rather--how the Lutherans fit the contents of the creed into their faith alone theology:

Athanasian Creed
.............
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

IOW--how do denominations which profess faith alone theology--where all works are excluded in obtaining eternal life--mesh the witness of the creed, and the Savior--that all men will be judged according to works--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 
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