The Atonement and the Ransom: Don't fall asleep. This may be a boring OP, but it's an exciting subject.

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Besides the Bible obviously, over the years I have read many edifying books about the atonement, particularly McLeod Campbell's The Nature of the Atonement and Gustav Aulen's Christus Victor. It's a difficult subject and even though I don't believe it is imperative that the atonement be deeply comprehended in order to have a fruitful walk with the Lord, the central theme which I take away from any study is that I personally need to dispel any notion that SINCE Christ sacrificed His life for us, the Father can therefore love us, but rather believe that SINCE our Father loves us, therefore He sacrificed His Son and His Son sacrificed Himself. The atonement was not for legal standing, but rather for access to the throne of grace, an access which our Father desired us to have. But putting aside the wonderful benefits that have been bestowed upon us because of the atoning elements of Jesus' sacrifice, e.g. His High Priesthood and intercessory advocacy, I need to constantly remind myself that He is also our Redeemer.

And as our Redeemer, here is where I find a scarcity of material in any book on the atonement and not too much in scripture other than a few mentions that we have been redeemed by His blood via a ransom paid in blood. We are not even specifically told to whom or what the ransom was paid. I feel sure that it was paid to Satan, the "prince of the power of the air," but why? To set the captives, i.e. us sinners free obviously, but how did Satan get temporary control of the cosmos? I've also been reading Michael Heiser's The Unseen Realm in which he discusses a pre-Edenic revolution and how it might help explain the leap from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 1:2, from perfection to corruption. I know John Milton was just a poet, but was he a prophet too? Anyway, even Heiser does not touch much on the ransom. Was there a war in heaven? If I contemplate Satan's temporary "right" to authority as based upon some cosmic legal battle which he won before the creation of the universe, I want to scold myself for entertaining the ridiculous notion that there might exist some rules that God Almighty would be forced abide by.

Do any of you fellow believers have any thoughts on this subject?
 
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... Michael Heiser's The Unseen Realm in which he discusses a pre-Edenic revolution and how it might help explain the leap from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 1:2, from perfection to corruption....
Would that not imply that corruption was 'very good'?
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
 
And corruption spread from the unseen realm to the seen.
How can there be corruption in heaven? Per Jesus, God's will is done in heaven. I suggest corruption arose in those who left heaven without authority, and who then couldn't get back into heaven.
 
Corruption between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2;

There seems to be, yeah.

of course, Michael Heiser provided scripture to support that claim?

Yes, centering around Psalms 82 and the Divine Council. But I'm looking for suggestions as to how it came about that Satan became the prince of this world to whom a ransom was owed in order to liberate the captives, i.e, us. Heiser is no help with that. There seems to be a pre-Edenic corruption, endorsed by Heiser with no light on how it resulted in apparently some cosmic "rights" obtained by Satan.
 
Besides the Bible obviously, over the years I have read many edifying books about the atonement, particularly McLeod Campbell's The Nature of the Atonement and Gustav Aulen's Christus Victor. It's a difficult subject and even though I don't believe it is imperative that the atonement be deeply comprehended in order to have a fruitful walk with the Lord, the central theme which I take away from any study is that I personally need to dispel any notion that SINCE Christ sacrificed His life for us, the Father can therefore love us, but rather believe that SINCE our Father loves us, therefore He sacrificed His Son and His Son sacrificed Himself.

yes

The atonement was not for legal standing, but rather for access to the throne of grace, an access which our Father desired us to have. But putting aside the wonderful benefits that have been bestowed upon us because of the atoning elements of Jesus' sacrifice, e.g. His High Priesthood and intercessory advocacy, I need to constantly remind myself that He is also our Redeemer.

And as our Redeemer, here is where I find a scarcity of material in any book on the atonement and not too much in scripture other than a few mentions that we have been redeemed by His blood via a ransom paid in blood. We are not even specifically told to whom or what the ransom was paid.

on purpose the evil realm leaves out that it exists and that it rules this earth. Much heathen exegesis happened to hide from us the truth,

I feel sure that it was paid to Satan, the "prince of the power of the air," but why? To set the captives, i.e. us sinners free obviously, but how did Satan get temporary control of the cosmos?

What the evil realm did is unbelievable.
I've also been reading Michael Heiser's The Unseen Realm in which he discusses a pre-Edenic revolution and how it might help explain the leap from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 1:2, from perfection to corruption.

Heiser has some good finds...
I know John Milton was just a poet, but was he a prophet too? Anyway, even Heiser does not touch much on the ransom. Was there a war in heaven?

yes. Still ongoing.

If I contemplate Satan's temporary "right" to authority as based upon some cosmic legal battle which he won before the creation of the universe, I want to scold myself for entertaining the ridiculous notion that there might exist some rules that God Almighty would be forced abide by.
It's bit different - more like we are being held for ransom ... and the evil realm uses us against God.
Do any of you fellow believers have any thoughts on this subject?
I've left out a lot.

Also...
 
Besides the Bible obviously, over the years I have read many edifying books about the atonement, particularly McLeod Campbell's The Nature of the Atonement and Gustav Aulen's Christus Victor. It's a difficult subject and even though I don't believe it is imperative that the atonement be deeply comprehended in order to have a fruitful walk with the Lord, the central theme which I take away from any study is that I personally need to dispel any notion that SINCE Christ sacrificed His life for us, the Father can therefore love us, but rather believe that SINCE our Father loves us, therefore He sacrificed His Son and His Son sacrificed Himself. The atonement was not for legal standing, but rather for access to the throne of grace, an access which our Father desired us to have. But putting aside the wonderful benefits that have been bestowed upon us because of the atoning elements of Jesus' sacrifice, e.g. His High Priesthood and intercessory advocacy, I need to constantly remind myself that He is also our Redeemer.

And as our Redeemer, here is where I find a scarcity of material in any book on the atonement and not too much in scripture other than a few mentions that we have been redeemed by His blood via a ransom paid in blood. We are not even specifically told to whom or what the ransom was paid. I feel sure that it was paid to Satan, the "prince of the power of the air," but why? To set the captives, i.e. us sinners free obviously, but how did Satan get temporary control of the cosmos? I've also been reading Michael Heiser's The Unseen Realm in which he discusses a pre-Edenic revolution and how it might help explain the leap from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 1:2, from perfection to corruption. I know John Milton was just a poet, but was he a prophet too? Anyway, even Heiser does not touch much on the ransom. Was there a war in heaven? If I contemplate Satan's temporary "right" to authority as based upon some cosmic legal battle which he won before the creation of the universe, I want to scold myself for entertaining the ridiculous notion that there might exist some rules that God Almighty would be forced abide by.

Do any of you fellow believers have any thoughts on this subject?
The Christus Victor view of the atonement is the same as the Ransom view.


Or Christus Victor view is a reinterpretation of the Ransom view.


 
The Christus Victor view of the atonement is the same as the Ransom view.


Or Christus Victor view is a reinterpretation of the Ransom view.



None of that sheds any light on how Satan became "prince of the power of the air," If the ransom was paid to him, which I believe it was, and if the payment in blood from the cross facilitated our release from his captivity, which I believe it did, how did Satan come to have kidnapping rights to dominion over us in the first place? I don't believe the fall of man in the Garden of Eden facilitated the corruption of the entire cosmos, manifested in the formlessness and void mentioned in Genesis 1:2. It seems as though there was a fall in the unseen realm, preceding that fall of man, preceding even the creation of the earth. That fall seems to have taken place between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. The Bible is strangely silent on the subject. Heiser discusses that apparently pre-Edenic fall, based on Psalms 82, but he too is silent about the ransom and how Satan must have somehow obtained some rights. I think the Book of Enoch might hint at some answers, but for me it remains a juicy mystery.
 
None of that sheds any light on how Satan became "prince of the power of the air," If the ransom was paid to him, which I believe it was, and if the payment in blood from the cross facilitated our release from his captivity, which I believe it did, how did Satan come to have kidnapping rights to dominion over us in the first place? I don't believe the fall of man in the Garden of Eden facilitated the corruption of the entire cosmos, manifested in the formlessness and void mentioned in Genesis 1:2. It seems as though there was a fall in the unseen realm, preceding that fall of man, preceding even the creation of the earth. That fall seems to have taken place between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. The Bible is strangely silent on the subject. Heiser discusses that apparently pre-Edenic fall, based on Psalms 82, but he too is silent about the ransom and how Satan must have somehow obtained some rights. I think the Book of Enoch might hint at some answers, but for me it remains a juicy mystery.
The Greg Boyd article is really good. Check it out. I think it is what you are looking for. It is packed with scriptures to support the view.
 
The Greg Boyd article is really good. Check it out. I think it is what you are looking for. It is packed with scriptures to support the view.

He has little to say about the ransom other than this weak bit:

So too, the Christus Victor model can wholeheartedly affirm that Jesus gave his life as a ransom for many, but without supposing that Jesus literally had to buy off either God or the devil (Mk 10:45; Mt 20:28; cf. I Tim. 2:6; Heb 9:15). The word “ransom” simply means “the price of release” and was most commonly used when purchasing slaves from the slave market. (18) Hence, the Christus Victor model can simply take this to mean that Christ did whatever it took to release us from slavery to the powers, and this he did by become incarnate, living an outrageously loving life in defiance of the powers, freeing people from the oppression of the devil through healings and exorcisms, teaching the way of self-sacrificial love, and most definitively by his sacrificial death and victorious resurrection.
 
He has little to say about the ransom other than this weak bit:

So too, the Christus Victor model can wholeheartedly affirm that Jesus gave his life as a ransom for many, but without supposing that Jesus literally had to buy off either God or the devil (Mk 10:45; Mt 20:28; cf. I Tim. 2:6; Heb 9:15). The word “ransom” simply means “the price of release” and was most commonly used when purchasing slaves from the slave market. (18) Hence, the Christus Victor model can simply take this to mean that Christ did whatever it took to release us from slavery to the powers, and this he did by become incarnate, living an outrageously loving life in defiance of the powers, freeing people from the oppression of the devil through healings and exorcisms, teaching the way of self-sacrificial love, and most definitively by his sacrificial death and victorious resurrection.
also on Boyd's blog=
I’m led to the belief that there was some sort of rebellion in the primordial past, first among angelic beings, then with humans. The first resulted in nature becoming to some degree corrupt while the second (which is simply our being co-opted into the first rebellion) resulted in human beings becoming corrupt and loosing the authority over nature we were supposed to have.

Jesus came to restore both humans and the cosmos (Rom 8:18-25; Col 1:15-23). And he does it by freeing both humans and the cosmos from the oppression of the demonic powers and the sin that so enslaves us.
 
None of that sheds any light on how Satan became "prince of the power of the air," If the ransom was paid to him, which I believe it was, and if the payment in blood from the cross facilitated our release from his captivity, which I believe it did, how did Satan come to have kidnapping rights to dominion over us in the first place? I don't believe the fall of man in the Garden of Eden facilitated the corruption of the entire cosmos, manifested in the formlessness and void mentioned in Genesis 1:2. It seems as though there was a fall in the unseen realm, preceding that fall of man, preceding even the creation of the earth. That fall seems to have taken place between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. The Bible is strangely silent on the subject. Heiser discusses that apparently pre-Edenic fall, based on Psalms 82, but he too is silent about the ransom and how Satan must have somehow obtained some rights. I think the Book of Enoch might hint at some answers, but for me it remains a juicy mystery.
This is misconceived as it is dualist. The ransom wasn't paid to satan, but to God under his law. Men were bound in captivity by God, because of their sins. Satan had no "rights" on earth except for the power that God granted him and continues to grant him, which is now limited, but we are told satan will rise once more from the abyss for a short while. Whatever power had qua his status as a former angel was allowed under God's authority because of men's sins: in this God bound men over to disobedience so that he could have mercy on them.

So you're imputing too much to satan as an independent power. Satan only possessed "rights" as an angel of God, before he gave up his position in heaven and fell to the realm of earth. There he was "thrown into the abyss for a thousand years" (i.e. his power became limited).

The fall of man into sin is between man & God, and had little to do with satan, per se, who is a peripheral and yet oppressive power. Adam sinned without being deceived by satan, which is a crucial matter to grasp. Hence he was given over to demonic oppression.

Being the "prince of the power of the air" allows satan to control his dupes, and oppress anyone whom God elects, but nothing more.
 
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also on Boyd's blog=
I’m led to the belief that there was some sort of rebellion in the primordial past, first among angelic beings, then with humans. The first resulted in nature becoming to some degree corrupt while the second (which is simply our being co-opted into the first rebellion) resulted in human beings becoming corrupt and loosing the authority over nature we were supposed to have.

Jesus came to restore both humans and the cosmos (Rom 8:18-25; Col 1:15-23). And he does it by freeing both humans and the cosmos from the oppression of the demonic powers and the sin that so enslaves us.

Thank you. That is very enlightening. I wonder why the Bible is so relatively silent on this apparent pre-Edenic war in heaven.
 
This is misconceived as it is dualist. The ransom wasn't paid to satan, but to God under his law.

Oh no! I STRONGLY disagree with that.

Men were bound in captivity by God, because of their sins. Satan had no "rights" on earth except for the power that God granted him and continues to grant him, which is now limited, but we are told satan will rise once more from the abyss for a short while. Whatever power had qua his status as a former angel was allowed under God's authority because of men's sins: in this God bound men over to disobedience so that he could have mercy on them all.
So you're imputing too much to satan as an independent power. Satan only possessed "rights" as an angel of God, before he gave up his position in heaven and fell to the realm of earth. There he was "thrown into the abyss for a thousand years" (i.e. his power became limited).

I'm with you on all of that though.

But the thought of our loving Creator being bound by a law greater than He, to the point where He needed to incarcerate His loved ones so that His Son could set them free is not only repugnant to me, but unscriptural I think.
 
But the thought of our loving Creator being bound by a law greater than He, to the point where He needed to incarcerate His loved ones so that His Son could set them free is not only repugnant to me, but unscriptural I think.
No you're wrong. God bound himself by his own law. You need to study the OT more. "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."
 
Thank you. That is very enlightening. I wonder why the Bible is so relatively silent on this apparent pre-Edenic war in heaven.
The bible tells us there was a war in heaven in which Satan and those angels that followed him were thrown out. The bible doesn't tell us when that war happened. You have to deduce the pre-Edenic war in heaven by knowing according to scripture that the angels were there when creation began. Then in the garden Satan (a former angel) appears as a serpent or is possessing serpent in order to entice Eve.

Somewhere in between the very beginning of creation and the garden of Eden temptation, God created angels and the war took place.
 
The bible tells us there was a war in heaven in which Satan and those angels that followed him were thrown out. The bible doesn't tell us when that war happened. You have to deduce the pre-Edenic war in heaven by knowing according to scripture that the angels were there when creation began. Then in the garden Satan (a former angel) appears as a serpent or is possessing serpent in order to entice Eve.

Somewhere in between the very beginning of creation and the garden of Eden temptation, God created angels and the war took place.
What makes you think so? Read on from Rev 12:7 where "war in heaven" is referred to, and you soon come to:

Rev 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Rev 12:10 2And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

This doesn't sound "OT" to me.
 
No you're wrong. God bound himself by his own law. You need to study the OT more. "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

No one said or implied otherwise. If you came to this thread looking for a fight, you came to the wrong guy. I'm just looking for insight on the ransom, and you've offered me nothing of value.
 
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