The Atonement and the Ransom: Don't fall asleep. This may be a boring OP, but it's an exciting subject.

stiggy wiggy said:
No one said or implied otherwise. If you came to this thread looking for a fight, you came to the wrong guy. I'm just looking for insight on the ransom, and you've offered me nothing of value.
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I told you that it was a ransom the law, or God, demanded (the law ordained by God himself). It seems you are unable to accept it, and wish to inculcate some unscriptural gnosis about it being given to satan.
 
stiggy wiggy said:
Your background in knowing my background in the OT is extremely defective.
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I don't think so. No-one would approach this subject without bringing up the OT and the law of Moses as their first port of call. That you are less than impressed with my suggestions, suggests that you are clueless.
 
cjab said:
I don't think so. No-one would approach this subject without bringing up the OT and the law of Moses as their first port of call. That you are less than impressed with my suggestions, suggests that you are clueless.
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He is considering a certain aspect of the atonement that doesn't have to do with the laws of animal sacrifice. Although the passover might have some significance as a type of ransom.
 
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cjab said:
I don't think so. No-one would approach this subject without bringing up the OT and the law of Moses as their first port of call.
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You can take your erroneous speculations about my knowledge of the OT and shove them into your most convenient aperture.
 
cjab said:
I don't think so. No-one would approach this subject without bringing up the OT and the law of Moses as their first port of call. That you are less than impressed with my suggestions, suggests that you are clueless.
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Incidentally, were you not aware that both Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 are both in the OT?
 
Caroljeen said:
He is considering a certain aspect of the atonement that doesn't have to do with the laws of animal sacrifice. Although the passover might have some significance as a type of ransom.
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The principal of redemption of one's life by a substitute is foundin Exodus 21:30 "If payment is demanded of him instead [of his life], he may redeem his life by paying the full amount demanded of him."

On being enrolled amongst the people of God, the Israelites had to pay a ransom for their souls to the Lord: Ex 30:12 "When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them."

But for the soul to be forgiven, blood had to be shed Lev 17:11 "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have ordained it for you upon the altar, to make atonement for your souls, for the blood it is which makes atonement by means of the soul." cf Leviticus 17:14, Genesis 9:4; Deuteronomy 12:23.
 
cjab said:
What makes you think so? Read on from Rev 12:7 where "war in heaven" is referred to, and you soon come to:

Rev 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Rev 12:10 2And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

This doesn't sound "OT" to me.
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On second thought, Satan presented himself before God in Job. In 1 Kings 22 a spirit was sent as a lying spirit to cause king Ahab to go to battle and be defeated. There were evil spirits presenting themselves before God in the old testament. But after Jesus defeated Satan through the cross and paid the ransom in his blood, he went to the throne of God and Satan and his followers were cast out of heaven.

Nevertheless, something happened in between creation and the garden which involved the creation of angels and their rebellion and Satan tempting Eve in the garden.

The angels were with God in during creation- Jobs 38:4-7

Jude1: 6 And the angels who did not keep their own position but deserted their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great day.
 
Caroljeen said:
did not keep their own position but deserted their proper dwelling
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Was there a time lapse between the angels "not keeping their own position" and their being "thrown out of heaven"?

Was it instantaneous, as in "just like that," or did it entail an elapse of finite time extending to the duration of the OT period between Adam and Eve and the resurrection of Christ?

What if the initial rebellion was a subtle one, where the angels pretended to serve two masters (God in heaven and Satan on earth) which is reflected in Satan's ongoing service to God cf. book of Job after deceiving Eve? Eventually God permanently threw them out of heaven to the jurisdiction of earth and to the abyss, upon the resurrection of Christ.
 
cjab said:
Was there a time lapse between the angels "not keeping their own position" and their being "thrown out of heaven"?

Was it instantaneous, as in "just like that," or did it entail an elapse of finite time extending to the duration of the OT period between Adam and Eve and the resurrection of Christ?

What if the initial rebellion was a subtle one, where the angels pretended to serve two masters (God in heaven and Satan on earth) which is reflected in Satan's ongoing service to God cf. book of Job after deceiving Eve? Eventually God permanently threw them out of heaven to the jurisdiction of earth and to the abyss, upon the resurrection of Christ.
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Are you asking me or are you being rhetorical?
 
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