The beginning at Proverbs 8 = εν αρχή at J 1:1

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
"In" κόσμος cannot be literally locative. The only person he was "in" was Mary when he was a baby.

At J 17:15 Jesus did not ask that his disciples be taken "out" of ο κόσμος.

At J 17:18 Jesus said just as the Father sent him into ο κόσμος, he sent his disciples into ο κόσμος. When he did that they were already around people.

If you force a literal heaven vs earth, then did the Father send Jesus into the world from heaven? Remember you said, did Jesus say this from heaven?

Being "in" the world is a special sense that describes the evangelizing work for κόσμος.

It doesn't matter, pick your definition of ο κόσμος :

(1) the physical world, i. e. the universe, (2) the circle of the earth, the earth, (3) the inhabitants of the world, (4) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God ,(5) the World system,

The statement Jesus made at John 17:11 would be false if not seen proleptically.

Unless you want a self-serving, unbiblical definition of ο κόσμος as "stoppage of preaching by Jesus." Even then, hilariously, his statement at John 17:11 would be false.
 
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Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
It doesn't matter, pick your definition of ο κόσμος : (1) the world, i. e. the universe, (2) the circle of the earth, the earth, (3) the inhabitants of the world, (4) "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God,

The statement Jesus made would be false if not seen as being proleptic.

How did Jesus send his disciples into the world at J 17:18? Where were they when he did that?

In this context ο κόσμος is the ministry field. They were already on earth and amongst the Jews. But he sent them into κόσμος.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
How did Jesus send his disciples into the world at J 17:18? Where were they when he did that?
ο κόσμος here means the populated centers, especially of the surrounding territories .


In this context ο κόσμος is the ministry field. They were already on earth and amongst the Jews. But he sent them into κόσμος.

What exactly is "a ministry field" if not the people in the villages and towns of a region ? So was Jesus saying in John 17:11 he was no longer in any populated village or town of the World ?
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
ο κόσμος means to the people in the villages in the surrounding territories , to the inhabitants of this world.




What exactly is "a ministry field" if not the people in the villages and towns of a region ? So was Jesus saying in John 17:11 he was no longer in any populated village or town of the World ?

It's also related to αποστέλλω (J 17:18), being sent for some objective. The same verb was used at Mr 3:14 and refers to a special commission.

I don't know where you get populated village from as a sense for κόσμος.

You think they lived in an unpopulated village like a ghost town?
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
It's also related to αποστέλλω (J 17:18), being sent for some objective. The same verb was used at Mr 3:14 and refers to a special commission.

I don't know where you get populated village from as a sense for κόσμος.

You think they lived in an unpopulated village like a ghost town?

Of course not, hence I specifically wrote "populated" because one meaning of κόσμος is the the inhabitants of the world.

So "a ministry field" is a region of this earth where there are people to be converted. Was Jesus saying that he was not in any "ministry field" in John 17:11 ? You can't seriously think that.

Here is some food for thought from Ellicott's Commentary:


And now I am no more in the world.—The immediate future is still regarded as present. The words have a special reference to the interval between His death and the day of Pentecost, which would be for the disciples a time of darkness and danger, when they would have special need of the Father’s care.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Of course not, hence I specifically wrote "populated" because one meaning of κόσμος is the the inhabitants of the world.

So "a ministry field" is a region of this earth where there are people to be converted. Was Jesus saying that he was not in any "ministry field" in John 17:11 ? You can't seriously think that.

Here is some food for thought from Ellicott's Commentary:

At the beginning of this discussion I pointed out that at J 17:6-8 Jesus has completed the work in the world.

Jesus was sent (αποστέλλω), into the world by his Father (J 17:18) and he sent his disciples just as his Father sent him. But his work was done. So he was no longer preaching in the world. But his disciples still were.

It's the only thing that makes sense. And it's all in John 17.

As I said before, they were engaged in preaching in the world. That is explicit with αποστέλλω at J 17:18.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
At the beginning of this discussion I pointed out that at J 17:6-8 Jesus has completed the work in the world.

Jesus was sent (αποστέλλω), into the world by his Father (J 17:18) and he sent his disciples just as his Father sent him. But his work was done. So he was no longer preaching in the world. But his disciples still were.

It's the only thing that makes sense. And it's all in John 17.

As I said before, they were engaged in preaching in the world. That is explicit with αποστέλλω at J 17:18.

Then he would have said " I am no longer preaching in the Kosmos" not "I am no longer in the Kosmos." See the difference ?
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Then he would have said " I am no longer preaching in the Kosmos" not "I am no longer in the Kosmos." See the difference ?

At J 17:18 the Father αποστέλλω him into ο κόσμος. Just as he sent his disciples into ο κόσμος.

But both were on earth, amongst people before that. At J 17:4 Jesus finished the work he was given. In verse 6 he was given men out of ο κόσμος as a result of that work.

Then he sent (αποστέλλω) them into the world to do the same work. But they were always on planet earth and living amongst their fellow Jews.

But Jesus was no longer in the world in that sense. He had completed his commission.

It's not just κόσμος, it's being an apostle (αποστέλλω) in the world that is in view, the commission.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Matthew 13:38 came to my remembrance:

ὁ δὲ ἀγρός ἐστιν ὁ κόσμος· τὸ δὲ καλὸν σπέρμα, οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ υἱοὶ τῆς βασιλείας· τὰ δὲ ζιζάνιά εἰσιν οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ πονηροῦ,

Here Jesus defined ὁ κόσμος as a field, as a specific place. By ὁ κόσμος he never means "preaching in the World." He uses the verb "preaching" (or a substitute verb or participle ) in addition to the noun ὁ κόσμος if he wants to say "preach in the World." For instance one verse prior he used the verb σπείρω in this regard:

ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν Ὁ σπείρων τὸ καλὸν σπέρμα ἐστὶν ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου·


In Greek οὐκέτι εἰμὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ is not the same as οὐκέτι εὐαγγελίζομαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ anymore than "No longer am I in the world" is the same as "No longer am I preaching in the world." Does this really need explaining ?
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
At J 17:18 the Father αποστέλλω him into ο κόσμος. Just as he sent his disciples into ο κόσμος.

But both were on earth, amongst people before that. At J 17:4 Jesus finished the work he was given. In verse 6 he was given men out of ο κόσμος as a result of that work.

Then he sent (αποστέλλω) them into the world to do the same work. But they were always on planet earth and living amongst their fellow Jews.

But Jesus was no longer in the world in that sense. He had completed his commission.

You just proved my point again. In John 17:18 ο κόσμος does not incorporate the meaning of αποστέλλω. The Father sent him into the World...... ἐμὲ ἀπέστειλας εἰς τὸν κόσμον

It's not just κόσμος, it's being an apostle (αποστέλλω) in the world that is in view, the commission.
αποστέλλω is a verb, not a noun.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Matthew 13:38 came to my remembrance:



Here Jesus defined ὁ κόσμος as a field, as a specific place. By ὁ κόσμος he never means "preaching in the World." He uses the verb "preaching" (or a substitute verb or participle ) in addition to the noun ὁ κόσμος if he wants to say "preach in the World." For instance one verse prior he used the verb σπείρω in this regard:




In Greek οὐκέτι εἰμὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ is not the same as οὐκέτι εὐαγγελίζομαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ anymore than "No longer am I in the world" is the same as "No longer am I preaching in the world." Does this really need explaining ?

There is more than one way to express similar ideas. You who try to use γινομαι for ειμι must realize this.

Does this really need explaining?

That being said, Matthew is a parable using an agricultural metaphor. I don't see this at John 17, do you?
 
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Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
You just proved my point again. In John 17:18 ο κόσμος does not incorporate the meaning of αποστέλλω. The Father sent him into the World...... ἐμὲ ἀπέστειλας εἰς τὸν κόσμον


αποστέλλω is a verb, not a noun.

Yes, I presume you understand how cognates are related?
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
You just proved my point again. In John 17:18 ο κόσμος does not incorporate the meaning of αποστέλλω. The Father sent him into the World...... ἐμὲ ἀπέστειλας εἰς τὸν κόσμον


αποστέλλω is a verb, not a noun.

You started out arguing that prolepsis was in view with Jesus no longer being in the world but speaking as if he was already in heaven.

Now you see κόσμος as not the opposite of heaven.

That's been refuted. Why are you still arguing?

John 17 is actually aproleptic! Don't get apoplectic. ;)
 
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The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Yes, I presume you understand how cognates are related?
You needed/wanted the noun ἀπόστολος. In any case αποστέλλω may indeed be “related” to the noun ἀπόστολος but neither is related to ὁ κόσμος etymologically. Your posts at this time are becoming rather incoherent, I fear.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
You needed/wanted the noun ἀπόστολος. In any case αποστέλλω may indeed be “related” to the noun ἀπόστολος but it is unrelated to ὁ κόσμος etymologically. Your posts at this time are becoming rather incoherent, I fear.

I am not relating those two words. Jesus did by using them together.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
You started out arguing that prolepsis was in view with Jesus no longer being in the world but speaking as if he was already in heaven.

Now you see κόσμος as not the opposite of heaven.

That's been refuted. Why are you still arguing?

John 17 is actually aproleptic! Don't get apoplectic. ;)
That’s bizarre.
 
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