The beginning at Proverbs 8 = εν αρχή at J 1:1

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
You have not refuted any argument of mine in this thread, not yet anyhow.

You said:
John 17:12

Again, he is speaking as though he is no longer with them in this World even though they are still literally present with him on earth as he says these words. So KJV has got it right: "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Are you now saying κόσμος is not planet earth?

I believe I refuted this.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
LOL! It's part of the same passage and same subject!

Not sure what your point is. In verse 8 Jesus said καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅτι σύ με ἀπέστειλας (..and they have believed that You have sent me.) In verse 11 he said καὶ οὐκέτι εἰμὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ (I am no longer in the World." How does Jesus using the second person form of the verb "sent" in verse 8 affect the meaning of τῷ κόσμῳ in verse 11 ?


Each instance of ο κόσμος inserts the article for renewed mention. There is no doubt they all have the same referent.

What "referent" do you think ο κόσμος in verse 11 has ?
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Not sure what your point is. In verse 8 Jesus said καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅτι σύ με ἀπέστειλας (..and they have believed that You have sent me.) In verse 11 he said καὶ οὐκέτι εἰμὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ (I am no longer in the World." How does Jesus using the second person form of the verb "sent" in verse 8 affect the meaning of τῷ κόσμῳ in verse 11 ?




What "referent" do you think ο κόσμος in verse 11 has ?

I don't think any instance of ο κόσμος in John 17 means planet earth. Not even 17:5.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
You said:
John 17:12

Again, he is speaking as though he is no longer with them in this World even though they are still literally present with him on earth as he says these words. So KJV has got it right: "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Are you now saying κόσμος is not planet earth?

I believe I refuted this.

Ofcourse not. This is what prolepsis is all about. It's a mode of speech Biblical prophets use from time to time. He is on planet earth, but is speaking as though he were off it. This is anticipatory language, the immediate future being regarded as already fulfilled because he is certain that what God had predestined long ago will occur shortly. Didn't you read Ellicott on this score:

And now I am no more in the world.—The immediate future is still regarded as present.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Ofcourse not. This is what prolepsis is all about. It's a mode of speech Biblical prophets use from time to time. He is on planet earth, but is speaking as though he were off it. This is anticipatory language, the immediate future being regarded as already fulfilled because he is certain that what God had predestined long ago will occur shortly. Didn't you read Ellicott on this score:

You started calling ο κόσμος a population center.

That destroys your prolepsis.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
I said it could mean that. But my definition of ο κόσμος in John 17 is "this Word" taken in the general sense (it's territory, government, people and institutions), as opposed to Heaven.

I might have felt that way a year or so ago, but in my study of the article it's very uncommon to have two articular nouns immediately following each other that don't have the same referent.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
I might have felt that way a year or so ago, but in my study of the article it's very uncommon to have two articular nouns immediately following each other that don't have the same referent.
Which two nouns ( verses please) are you talking about now? Please point them out next post as I don’t wish to misrepresent you in any way.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
καὶ οὐκέτι εἰμὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ εἰσίν, κἀγὼ πρὸς σὲ ἔρχομαι. Πάτερ ἅγιε, τήρησον αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου ᾧ δέδωκάς μοι, ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν καθὼς ἡμεῖς.

I would agree that both nouns above have the same meaning.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
I’ve still not received a coherent response from Roger concerning John 17:11. He has defined κόσμος as “the mission field” ( a place, location). How could Jesus honestly have said that he was no longer in the “mission field” as he spoke these words when he was very clearly in it ? Only option is to read this verse proleptically, it seems to me.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
I’ve still not received a coherent response from Roger concerning John 17:11. He has defined κόσμος as “the mission field” ( a place, location). How could Jesus honestly have said that he was no longer in the “mission field” as he spoke these words when he was very clearly in it ? Only option is to read this verse proleptically, it seems to me.

I did use the term "mission field" as an illustration. But my arguments go way beyond that.

You defined κόσμος as the planet earth in contrast with heaven. You do this in order to portray Jesus words that he was no longer in the world as if he is speaking from heaven.

But when Jesus was sent (αποστέλλω) into the world to preach by his Father he was a carpenter in a Jewish city. He sent his disciples just as (J 17:18) his Father sent him. They were fishermen in Israel.

Jesus completed that assignment (J 17:4: 6-8) and was no longer in the world in that sense.

Throughout John, and including chapter 17, κόσμος are people, not a location. I don't consider it to be a location. Stop saying that!

You consider it a location, earth, set against heaven and do this to make John 17 proleptic.

And, if you would provide an English rendering of John 17:5 like I did, that is defensible grammatically it would readily be apparent that you can't do so.

I have seen some modify the text to say "Father, glorify me with the glory that I had [promised to me before I existed] before the world was.

Of course that's nonsense.
 
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