The beginning at Proverbs 8 = εν αρχή at J 1:1

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Are you saying that that's not how you would define κόσμος ?




Your "arguments" were shown to be nonsensical, tying the definition of αποστέλλω with κόσμος and the like. Weird.

You are fond of quoting Trinitarians for your view. Maybe AT a Robertson's Word Pictures for J 17:18 will help you see the connection.

I am surprised that you object to Jesus using αποστέλλω into κόσμος being used by me to explain what κόσμος means.

How they were sent has a great deal to do with how they were "in" the world.

At least you don't play the paradox card and say they were in the world and not in the world! Hey man, that's deep! John OBVIOUSLY meant this: [insert any old ungrammatical view].

:)
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
I've looked at the various definitions of the noun κόσμος here and invariably any definition connotes (either implicitly or explicitly) a location. So for instance definition 5. the inhabitants of the world. In other words "the people living on God's green earth," i.e. the people in a place.

So it would be foolhardy indeed for Roger to try to provide me with a definition of κόσμος devoid of locality, in order to save his theology. Just saying. :) But perhaps he will try....
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
You are fond of quoting Trinitarians for your view. Maybe AT a Robertson's Word Pictures for J 17:18 will help you see the connection.

I am surprised that you object to Jesus using αποστέλλω into κόσμος being used by me to explain what κόσμος means.

How they were sent has a great deal to do with how they were "in" the world.

At least you don't play the paradox card and say they were in the world and not in the world! Hey man, that's deep! John OBVIOUSLY meant this: [insert any old ungrammatical view].

:)

Jesus does not "use αποστέλλω into κόσμος." It's not even a sensible thing to say. Literally gibberish.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
I've looked at the various definitions of the noun κόσμος here and invariably any definition connotes (either implicitly or explicitly) a location. So for instance definition 5. the inhabitants of the world. In other words "the people living on God's green earth," i.e. the people in a place.

So it would be foolhardy indeed for Roger to try to provide me with a definition of κόσμος devoid of locality, in order to save his theology. Just saying. :) But perhaps he will try....

Of course people are in a place. That does not make them a place. As I said, the only person Jesus was ever literally "in" was Mary.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Of course people are in a place.
To be in a place means to be present at a particular spot.

That does not make them a place.

Correct. So when Jesus said that he was no longer in the Kosmos, he was either lying (because he was still on location on earth) or else speaking proleptically. Notice that he draws a contrast between him and his disciples on this score while yet they were all literally in the same locale:

καὶ οὐκέτι εἰμὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ εἰσίν, κἀγὼ πρὸς σὲ ἔρχομαι.

As I said, the only person Jesus was ever literally "in" was Mary.

This is just an odd and nonsensical thing to say.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
That's not using αποστέλλω into κόσμος, that's a verb and a prepositional phrase, which makes no sense as is, unless the construction goes with καθὼς ἐμὲ, for starters, -- καθὼς ἐμὲ ἀπέστειλας εἰς τὸν κόσμον,....

lol!

You are majoring in the minors!
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
lol!

You are majoring in the minors!

No, you are just not making any sense.

In anycase, look at that clause καθὼς ἐμὲ ἀπέστειλας εἰς τὸν κόσμον ( "Just as you sent me into the World..."). In other Words the Kosmos here is to be defined as a place into which one is sent. So when Jesus says he is no longer in this Kosmos, he would be saying the reverse, that he is no longer in this place . He is gone out of this place. The definition entails a locale into which one can enter and from which one can exit.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
No, you are just not making any sense.

In anycase, look at that clause καθὼς ἐμὲ ἀπέστειλας εἰς τὸν κόσμον ( "Just as you sent me into the World..."). In other Words the Kosmos here is to be defined as a place into which one is sent. So when Jesus says he is no longer in this Kosmos, he would be saying the reverse, that he is no longer in this place . He is gone out of this place. The definition entails a locale into which one can enter and from which one can exit.

The prepositions are used both in literal ways and metaphorical ways. Look at a good lexicon. An extension into place, time or goal, etc.

In John 17:18 αποστέλλω is said by BDAG to be "to dispatch someone for the achievement of some objective."

That is goal.

Jesus said at J 17:4 he has completed that goal and gave reasons how at verses 6-8. His goal was achieved and he completed his ministry. In that sense he "returned" from the mission where God sent him into the world. He was not longer an apostle to the unbelievers. His disciples continued that work.

Jesus does not speak to you, does he?
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
The prepositions are used both in literal ways and metaphorical ways. Look at a good lexicon. An extension into place, time or goal, etc.

In John 17:18 αποστέλλω is said by BDAG to be "to dispatch someone for the achievement of some objective."

That is goal.

Jesus said at J 17:4 he has completed that goal and gave reasons how at verses 6-8. His goal was achieved and he completed his ministry. In that sense he "returned" from the mission where God sent him into the world. He was not longer an apostle to the unbelievers. His disciples continued that work.

Jesus does not speak to you, does he?

Not sure what you're trying to do now. Look at the Greek (though I'm pretty sure by now that you can't read or comprehend it):

καθὼς ἐμὲ ἀπέστειλας εἰς τὸν κόσμον, κἀγὼ ἀπέστειλα αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸν κόσμον·
ἀπέστειλας here denotes a literal sending of Jesus into the Word at large, i.e. Jesus is saying that the Father has caused his literal coming into the World (ostensibly for the purpose of spreading the Good News) ; this is not metaphysical language. In the same way Jesus is literally sending his disciples out into the World at large. ἀπέστειλας always involves an actual location .
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Not sure what you're trying to do now. Look at the Greek (though I'm pretty sure by now that you can't read or comprehend it):


ἀπέστειλας here denotes a literal sending of Jesus into the Word at large, i.e. Jesus is saying that the Father has caused his literal coming into the World, there are no metaphysics here. In the same way Jesus is literally sending his disciples out into the World at large. ἀπέστειλας always involves an actual location .

If a location is in view it is specified. I already tied Mr 3:14 as parallel to John 17:18 (Actually AT Robertson did it for me) and there when the 12 were appointed they were sent not to a place but "out to proclaim the message."

These examples can be multiplied.

κόσμος in John 17 means people, not the planet earth.

But why are you still arguing this? I already refuted the notion of κόσμος vs ουρανός at J 17, which was your original argument and what you need for Jesus to be speaking as if he is not in the world but prolepticly in heaven in the presence of his Father.

He was not in heaven when he was sent to proclaim the gospel to κόσμος and so when he was not εις κόσμος he would literally be where he was before he was sent.
 
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The Real John Milton

Well-known member
If a location is in view it is specified. I already tied Mr 3:14 as parallel to John 17:18 (Actually AT Robertson did it for me) and there when the 12 were appointed they were sent not to a place but "out to proclaim the message."

These examples can be multiplied.

κόσμος in John 17 means people, not the planet earth.

But why are you still arguing this? I already refuted the notion of κόσμος vs ουρανός at J 17, which was your original argument and what you need for Jesus to be speaking as if he is not in the world but prolepticly in heaven in the presence of his Father.

He was not in heaven when he was sent to proclaim the gospel to κόσμος and so when he was not εις κόσμος he would literally be where he was before he was sent.

I'm not going to go through all of the nonsense in your post, just some of it. κόσμος in John 17 does not mean "people," it is never interchangeable with λαός. In John 17 it denotes the people living in the surrounding villages and towns. Couple that with ἀποστέλλω and a location is undeniable.

ἀποστέλλω -- 1. to order (one) to go to a place appointed; a. either persons sent with commissions, or things intended for someone. So, very frequently, Jesus teaches that God sent him, as......
b. The place of the sending is specified:
2. to send away, i. e. to dismiss;
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
I'm not going to go through all of the nonsense in your post, just some of it. κόσμος in John 17 does not mean "people," it is never interchangeable with λαός. In John 17 it denotes the people living in the surrounding villages and towns. Couple that with ἀποστέλλω and a location is undeniable.

Thanks for your opinion.
 
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