The Bible tells is to have a paid clergy

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The Prophet

Active member
1 Timothy 5:17-18

Pastors who do their work well should be paid well and should be highly appreciated, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching.

For the Scriptures say, “Never tie up the mouth of an ox when it is treading out the grain—let him eat as he goes along!” And in another place, “Those who work deserve their pay!”



1 Corinthians 9:

I’m telling you what God’s law says.

For in the law God gave to Moses he said that you must not put a muzzle on an ox to keep it from eating when it is treading out the wheat. Do you suppose God was thinking only about oxen when he said this?

Wasn’t he also thinking about us? Of course, he was. He said this to show us that Christian workers should be paid by those they help. Those who do the plowing and threshing should expect some share of the harvest.

Mormons condemn this and tell us they don't have paid clergy when they do :)

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Theo1689

Well-known member
1 Corinthians 9:

Wasn’t he also thinking about us? Of course, he was. He said this to show us that Christian workers should be paid by those they help. Those who do the plowing and threshing should expect some share of the harvest.

Mormons condemn this and tell us they don't have paid clergy when they do :)

Yep, 1 Cor. 9 is pretty clear, isn't it?

You know that "no paid ministry" is one of the "17 Points of the One True Church" tract that LDS missionaries used to hand out a few decades ago?:


6. The true church must have no paid ministry. (Acts 20:33-34, John 10:11-13)

Not only do other "points" cite 1 Cor. to try to support them (16. "baptism for the dead"), so they did have access to the epistle, but for some reason they managed to skip over chapter 9.

But Acts 20:33 is about "not coveting", which is NOT the same as "not being paid" (otherwise no Mormon would be able to have any kind of paying job), and John 10:11 is about the shepherd laying down his life for the sheep, which has NOTHING to do with being "paid".

It's clear that the story of 2 or 3 guys studying the Bible to sincerely find the "one true church" is nonsense, and that it was simply a lame attempt to "proof-text" Mormonism.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
This is what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 9, NASB:

Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? 5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? 6 Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? 7 Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?

8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.” God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. 11 If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ. 13 Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar? 14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

Note the first bolded line...a Mormon on here on the last boards claimed Paul was saying he and Barnabbas had a right TO work for a living....when what Paul wrote was the opposite!

The second bolded part was ignored. Or misapplied. I saved some of the dialogue about this from the last boards. Unfortunately, some folks are ignorant of what REAL every-day pastors do and how hard they work. They look at televangelists--many of whom like Copeland and Osteen, are quite wealthy (and in my opinion, are not true Christians at all), and judge all pastors by the ones they see on TV. Which is foolish in the extreme.

However, to be fair, the rank and file "ministers" in Mormon wards do not get paid, but get their living from their regular jobs. But in many, if not most, true churches, being a pastor is ALL that the ministers do. It is their ONLY vocation. So, they should get their living from it. As Paul said and as the Lord directed. Cannot get around the fact that Jesus Himself told Paul to write this.
 

Mike McK

Well-known member
Yep, 1 Cor. 9 is pretty clear, isn't it?

You know that "no paid ministry" is one of the "17 Points of the One True Church" tract that LDS missionaries used to hand out a few decades ago?
Yeah, I hear it all the time. But there are a couple of problems with this claim, not the least of which is that Doctrine and Covenants 42:71-73 states that bishops (as well as elders and high priests who assist these bishops) are to receive “a just remuneration for all their services.”

Likewise, Doctrine and Covenants 75 says, "it is the duty of the church to assist in supporting the families of those, and also to support the families of those who are called and must needs be sent unto the world to proclaim the gospel unto the world".

So they're not even following their own rules.

What they don't tell you is that, while they do not receive a paycheck, per se, they do receive payment in kind, such as housing allowances, benefits, etc.

And it is a common practice to give them seats on the boards of companies owned by the COJCOLDS.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
What they don't tell you is that, while they do not receive a paycheck, per se, they do receive payment in kind, such as housing allowances, benefits, etc.
Slaves in the south got "free" housing, it's that the same thing as earning a paycheck?

And it is a common practice to give them seats on the boards of companies owned by the COJCOLDS.
If a company is owned by the church then it would be EXPECTED to sit on boards of those companies.

And it's not like we're talking about companies traded on the S&P or anything, the list of companies can be seen here:
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Slaves in the south got "free" housing, it's that the same thing as earning a paycheck?


If a company is owned by the church then it would be EXPECTED to sit on boards of those companies.

And it's not like we're talking about companies traded on the S&P or anything, the list of companies can be seen here:
Mormon general authorities used to sit on boards of companies not owned by the mormon church. They used their positions to lobby for those companies, and they were paid for it.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Mormon general authorities used to sit on boards of companies not owned by the mormon church. They used their positions to lobby for those companies, and they were paid for it.
It's interesting how the church is always guilty of crimes of the past, and never the present.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
It's interesting how the church is always guilty of crimes of the past, and never the present.
Well, that’s not true, either. They’re sitting on $100 billion surplus that could be used to do what Christ told us... help those in need. But it’s not. And people mistakenly think their tithing donations are helping others. Isn’t that a crime?
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Well, that’s not true, either. They’re sitting on $100 billion surplus that could be used to do what Christ told us... help those in need. But it’s not. And people mistakenly think their tithing donations are helping others. Isn’t that a crime?
Yeah. I get that argument. The other side of the argument is understanding if 501c3's investing savings is illegal, and if not, why?
Having been a financial ward clerk, and also served in the bishopric, I know much the church helps, but also how frugal they can be as well. Frankly, I wish the federal government operated more like the Church. There's a balance, and at the end of the day, I know it's not my stewardship. I think a lot of the attention can be attributed to the stock market bubble we are in, and Ensign Peaks is really good at what they do.
I kinda which the church didn't fight the tax-exempt status as much as they do. I dunno. A lot of good arguments on both sides.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
1 Timothy 5:17-18

Pastors who do their work well should be paid well and should be highly appreciated, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching.

For the Scriptures say, “Never tie up the mouth of an ox when it is treading out the grain—let him eat as he goes along!” And in another place, “Those who work deserve their pay!”



1 Corinthians 9:

I’m telling you what God’s law says.

For in the law God gave to Moses he said that you must not put a muzzle on an ox to keep it from eating when it is treading out the wheat. Do you suppose God was thinking only about oxen when he said this?

Wasn’t he also thinking about us? Of course, he was. He said this to show us that Christian workers should be paid by those they help. Those who do the plowing and threshing should expect some share of the harvest.

Mormons condemn this and tell us they don't have paid clergy when they do :)

EDIT image violation. Only supermembers can post images
Their clergy is paid in a way. They have a church credit card to use at their discretion. They can buy meals and pay for hotels with it while they travel for church work. So the claim that they aren't paid is kind of misleading.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Their clergy is paid in a way. They have a church credit card to use at their discretion. They can buy meals and pay for hotels with it while they travel for church work. So the claim that they aren't paid is kind of misleading.
And the higher ups in the LDS are given "living expenses" and I think their kids get free tuition at BYU.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Well, that’s not true, either. They’re sitting on $100 billion surplus that could be used to do what Christ told us... help those in need. But it’s not. And people mistakenly think their tithing donations are helping others. Isn’t that a crime?
I think the LDS claims it is saving the 100 billion $ for when Christ comes again....but why would they need all of that money, anyway?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
6. The true church must have no paid ministry. (Acts 20:33-34, John 10:11-13)

Not only do other "points" cite 1 Cor. to try to support them (16. "baptism for the dead"), so they did have access to the epistle, but for some reason they managed to skip over chapter 9.

But Acts 20:33 is about "not coveting", which is NOT the same as "not being paid" (otherwise no Mormon would be able to have any kind of paying job), and John 10:11 is about the shepherd laying down his life for the sheep, which has NOTHING to do with being "paid".

I've read through "17 Points of the One True Church" tract many times, and it's simply ridiculous, but it's a GREAT example of how Mormons abuse and disrespect the Bible in order to try to wrongfully try to support their false church.

As the story goes, it originates from two or three friends, who have absolutely NO affiliation with the LDS church, but wanting to know which church to join, and so they study the Bible to determine the "correct doctrine" for the "true church", to look for a church that meets that criteria.

Well, first of all, NOBODY is going to read the Bible in isolation, and come up with the doctrines of Mormonism. NOBODY is going to read through the Bible, and read PASSAGE after PASSAGE after PASSAGE that teaches strict monotheism, and then conclude that the "true church" is the one which teaches "plural gods".

Nobody who has any knowledge of the English language is going to rip verses out of context and falsely conclude that Acts 20 and John 10 refer to "not paying church clergy".

And most importantly, NOBODY who is actually interested in the true teachings of the Bible is going to IGNORE all the passages which actually ADDRESS the topic at hand:

1Cor. 9:2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
1Cor. 9:3 This is my defense to those who would examine me. 4 Do we not have the right to eat and drink? 5 Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? 7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?
1Cor. 9:8 Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? 10 Does he not speak certainly for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. 11 If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more?
Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ.
13 Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? 14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

Paul used MANY examples to support his claims, including Biblical examples. And because of these Biblical examples of those being paid "material things" for providing "spiritual things", we see other Biblical mandates for paid ministry:


Deut. 25:4You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain.

1Tim. 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.


And since Paul is here quoting Jesus, we also have:


Luke 10:5 Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house!’ 6 And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest upon him. But if not, it will return to you. 7 And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages. Do not go from house to house.


But we're too believe that unbiased, "non-Mormons", IGNORED all these relevant passages, didn't notice them at all, but instead felt that Acts 20 and John 10 were more relevant?

What a crock.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
And the higher ups in the LDS are given "living expenses" and I think their kids get free tuition at BYU.
Lol! I'd love to see documentation of "free tuition at BYU" - is that like family discount?

Here's an interesting article on living expenses: https://kutv.com/news/local/mormonl...t-living-allowance-of-lds-general-authorities

So, based on those numbers 89 people make $120K/yr. That's total "paid clergy" salaries of $10.68M. Pretty big right?
What percent of that is of the $7,000,000,000 they take in annually? 0.15% <- Sure sign of corruption, right there. :p

This is also keeping in mind, the "paid salary" is a job requiring 6 works days a week, traveling 44 weekends out of the year (source) - and you don't get a break until you die. I'd say $120K is fair compensation.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Lol! I'd love to see documentation of "free tuition at BYU" - is that like family discount?

You know, someone who was truly a Christian (as Mormons claim to be, but are clearly not) would say, "I'd like to see some evidence", or "where did you hear that from?", instead of the mockery and derision you offer.

I personally find it VERY easy to believe that BYU would happily waive the tuition for children of the "prophet".

So, based on those numbers 89 people make $120K/yr. That's total "paid clergy" salaries of $10.68M. Pretty big right?
What percent of that is of the $7,000,000,000 they take in annually? 0.15% <- Sure sign of corruption, right there. :p

Again, you offer nothing but mockery and derision.
Who cares what "percent" of financial intake does out to paid ministry?
Who said anything about "corruption"?

It sounds like you're straw-manning, instead of actually dealing with the actual ISSUE of "paid ministry".

I don't care if what you give your leaders is a millionth of a percent.
I don't care if what you give your leaders is a penny per year.

If it is ANYTHING, then it is "paid ministry", and it is hypocritical for criticizing TRUE Christian churches for following the Bible with paid ministry.

This is also keeping in mind, the "paid salary" is a job requiring 6 works days a week, traveling 44 weekends out of the year (source) - and you don't get a break until you die. I'd say $120K is fair compensation.

Um, "fair compensation" is precisely WHAT "paid salary" is.
So you are making a distinction without a difference.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
Lol! I'd love to see documentation of "free tuition at BYU" - is that like family discount?

Here's an interesting article on living expenses: https://kutv.com/news/local/mormonl...t-living-allowance-of-lds-general-authorities

So, based on those numbers 89 people make $120K/yr. That's total "paid clergy" salaries of $10.68M. Pretty big right?
What percent of that is of the $7,000,000,000 they take in annually? 0.15% <- Sure sign of corruption, right there. :p

This is also keeping in mind, the "paid salary" is a job requiring 6 works days a week, traveling 44 weekends out of the year (source) - and you don't get a break until you die. I'd say $120K is fair compensation.
You are changing goalposts. Paid does not remotely mean a paid salary. It in no way implies anything other than paid. And in a way as I posted, they are paid. But the fact that the church says they don't get paid is dishonest and misleading. Why not just be forthcoming about how they get a stipend for doing church work rather than making it seem like some fully uncompensated benevolent act.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
You are changing goalposts. Paid does not remotely mean a paid salary. It in no way implies anything other than paid. And in a way as I posted, they are paid. But the fact that the church says they don't get paid is dishonest and misleading.
I was responding to Bonnie's statement that the higher up's were paid. So if goalposts were moved, talk to Bonnie.

Why not just be forthcoming about how they get a stipend for doing church work rather than making it seem like some fully uncompensated benevolent act.
So if 89 men get paid (because they travel 44 weeks out of the year) vs the 31,136 unpaid bishoprics, and 3,463 stake presidencies, over wards, branches, and stakes. (Triple those numbers if you count Elder's quorum and Relief Society Presidencies not to mention all those that serve in Primary and Youth programs). Would you say the clergy is generally paid or unpaid? At highest percentage you could say is 0.25% are paid.

Now consider the average pay of pastors in general: https://www.salary.com/tools/salary-calculator/pastor?type=base

Now also consider those who are paid were successful in their careers - doctors, lawyers, university presidents, etc. They could have simply retired and financially be just as well off. Something doesn't need to be fully uncompensated to be benevolent.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Lol! I'd love to see documentation of "free tuition at BYU" - is that like family discount?
I don’t know where you’d find it documented. But it has been well known that children of the general authorities and mission presidents get free tuition at church schools.
 
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