The Book of Abraham

Markk

Super Member
Ralf, Gordon, BoJ....

As discussed. My hopes are to state our arguments and opinions first, so we know each others take on this much discussed issue. After we have all done so, then let it go where every it leads.

There are several theory's for the Book of Abraham's conception and how it was produced. This my very general assertion and view.

Joseph purchased mummies and Egyptain papyri from a traveling "salesman." He is said to have claimed that the papyri were actually writings from the hand Abraham and Joseph and the LDS cannon supports this claim for the former.

I believe and can show that Joseph claimed to be able to read Egyptian, and that his claim is actually LDS doctrine, being sustained so as scripture by the LDS church. However, his attempt to be able to actually read and translate the Egyptain papyri, and the materials in possession of the church; facsimiles of the original text purchased, was a complete fail and easily shown.

There are several theories by LDS scholars, even LDS Egyptologists paid by the church and official statements such as the essays by the church, that are basically all over the place and have evolved over time. And I can demonstrate this

The more prominent theories by paid apologists of the church are the long scroll or missing scroll theory, and the growing catalyst theory. Which will be a major focus of any debate on this subject.

I will show that the papyri are indeed ancient and important Egyptain texts, but every one, even the facsimiles in the BoA, are Egyptain funerary texts which were drafted for Egyptian's who have passed away and serves as a sort of passport through the underworlds so they can be basically be justified as worthy by the gods of the underworld, chiefly Osiris, by the weighing of the heart.

I can show that Joseph and his family profited of the papyri and mummies and it was a source of income for some of his family members. I will show he attempted to create a alphabet and grammar from a papyrus that the church is in possession of. There is a mountain of evidences to go through both pro and con, and it takes time, but is well worth it for one seeking the truth behind this LDS standard work and the credibility of Joseph Smith.

I would love to start with facsimile 3 after you positions are posted, but I will start anywhere you like.
 
Ralf, Gordon, BoJ....

As discussed. My hopes are to state our arguments and opinions first, so we know each others take on this much discussed issue. After we have all done so, then let it go where every it leads.

There are several theory's for the Book of Abraham's conception and how it was produced. This my very general assertion and view.

Joseph purchased mummies and Egyptain papyri from a traveling "salesman." He is said to have claimed that the papyri were actually writings from the hand Abraham and Joseph and the LDS cannon supports this claim for the former.

I believe and can show that Joseph claimed to be able to read Egyptian, and that his claim is actually LDS doctrine, being sustained so as scripture by the LDS church. However, his attempt to be able to actually read and translate the Egyptain papyri, and the materials in possession of the church; facsimiles of the original text purchased, was a complete fail and easily shown.

There are several theories by LDS scholars, even LDS Egyptologists paid by the church and official statements such as the essays by the church, that are basically all over the place and have evolved over time. And I can demonstrate this

The more prominent theories by paid apologists of the church are the long scroll or missing scroll theory, and the growing catalyst theory. Which will be a major focus of any debate on this subject.

I will show that the papyri are indeed ancient and important Egyptain texts, but every one, even the facsimiles in the BoA, are Egyptain funerary texts which were drafted for Egyptian's who have passed away and serves as a sort of passport through the underworlds so they can be basically be justified as worthy by the gods of the underworld, chiefly Osiris, by the weighing of the heart.

I can show that Joseph and his family profited of the papyri and mummies and it was a source of income for some of his family members. I will show he attempted to create a alphabet and grammar from a papyrus that the church is in possession of. There is a mountain of evidences to go through both pro and con, and it takes time, but is well worth it for one seeking the truth behind this LDS standard work and the credibility of Joseph Smith.

I would love to start with facsimile 3 after you positions are posted, but I will start anywhere you like.
How many theories are there, I only know of one documented true account, maybe you can share with us the other undocumented theories!


Joseph Smith could not read Egyptian writings or words, Markk is using a suspect account written by a ghostwriter and is using it as proof JS could speak and write Egyptian language.


The claim that it's funerary text is true, but he leaves out that they are talking about the text on either side of the facsimiles .
Markk knows this but is hiding the details that scholars have already pointed this out.


It's no big secret that JS mother did do tours of the facsimiles and mummies and charged for it. They were poor or lower middle class people by today's standards.

As far as the KEP, there is nothing there that would suggest any doubt on JS credibility or anyone who can sustain its viability...who Markk has ever published any thing for or a defense against it... it's a non issue.
 
How many theories are there, I only know of one documented true account, maybe you can share with us the other undocumented theories!


Joseph Smith could not read Egyptian writings or words, Markk is using a suspect account written by a ghostwriter and is using it as proof JS could speak and write Egyptian language.


The claim that it's funerary text is true, but he leaves out that they are talking about the text on either side of the facsimiles .
Markk knows this but is hiding the details that scholars have already pointed this out.


It's no big secret that JS mother did do tours of the facsimiles and mummies and charged for it. They were poor or lower middle class people by today's standards.

As far as the KEP, there is nothing there that would suggest any doubt on JS credibility or anyone who can sustain its viability...who Markk has ever published any thing for or a defense against it... it's a non issue.
Ralf we can discuss all these things to the end.

Please present your understanding here, what do you believe, what is your position. What is the one true documented account? Thanks
 
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How many theories are there, I only know of one documented true account, maybe you can share with us the other undocumented theories!


Joseph Smith could not read Egyptian writings or words, Markk is using a suspect account written by a ghostwriter and is using it as proof JS could speak and write Egyptian language.


The claim that it's funerary text is true, but he leaves out that they are talking about the text on either side of the facsimiles .
Markk knows this but is hiding the details that scholars have already pointed this out.


It's no big secret that JS mother did do tours of the facsimiles and mummies and charged for it. They were poor or lower middle class people by today's standards.

As far as the KEP, there is nothing there that would suggest any doubt on JS credibility or anyone who can sustain its viability...who Markk has ever published any thing for or a defense against it... it's a non issue.
The Book of Abraham teaches many Gods in chapter 4 and 5 would mean it's a spurious text
 
The Book of Abraham teaches many Gods in chapter 4 and 5 would mean it's a spurious text
The Book of Abrahan

CHAPTER 4

The Gods plan the creation of the earth and all life thereon—Their plans for the six days of creation are set forth.

1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.
2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.
3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.
4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

Notice how the Bible teaches One was involved in the creation

Isa. 44:24

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am the LORD, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Malachi 2

10 Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us?
 
Ralf we can discuss all these things to the end.

Please present your understanding here, what do you believe, what is your position. What is the one true documented account? Thanks
I have one position, there is no proof or evidence the Boom of Abraham is fabricated and not what it claims to be...
 
The Book of Abrahan

CHAPTER 4

The Gods plan the creation of the earth and all life thereon—Their plans for the six days of creation are set forth.

1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.
2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.
3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.
4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

Notice how the Bible teaches One was involved in the creation

Isa. 44:24

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am the LORD, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Malachi 2

10 Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us?
You ought to go to some other topic, this is apparently way over your head and not a topic about many Gods... go away, please.
 
I have one position, there is no proof or evidence the Boom of Abraham is fabricated and not what it claims to be...

I love how you try to smuggle in the double negative.

There's no evidence that the BoA is AUTHENTIC.
In fact, every actual Egyptologist who has looked at it as proved it not what Mormons falsely claim it to be.
 
I love how you try to smuggle in the double negative.

There's no evidence that the BoA is AUTHENTIC.
In fact, every actual Egyptologist who has looked at it as proved it not what Mormons falsely claim it to be.
There is no evidence it's not.... how many non mormons have actually looked at it....
 
My question was whether Joseph said, or not, that he could read Egyptian. And honestly I am asking you what you believe based on your studies.
be more specific are you referring to the Ghostwriter who made those claims, we have already debated this and you came up short...
 
be more specific are you referring to the Ghostwriter who made those claims, we have already debated this and you came up short...
Just Joseph saying he could or not. I hope to discuss every assertion out their. right or wrong did JS say he could read Egyptain?
 
Just Joseph saying he could or not. I hope to discuss every assertion out their. right or wrong did JS say he could read Egyptain?
Note that I'm aware of, but it was reported by his ghostwriter that he could and even speak it...
 
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