The Book of Abraham

This puzzles me....what makes any Mormon think Smith must have gotten the translation correct on the "long and missing scroll" when he completely botched the translation on the scrolls and facsimiles he DID have and that the LDS church still has?
You have not nor probably ever will do the proper research to make such a lame claim as above, I have go LOL at you naivety ..you lack any experience, wisdom or professional experience other then to quote someone else's theory or studies..hence your deep rooted gullibility.... chuckle.
 
Since when was it called the Urim and Thummim Seer Stone... chuckle.
What's absolutely ironic, , sad, and funny, or any other adjective you can chose, is that I just read that you were telling Bonnie she was naive and has not done proper research, when the facts are that The LDS church concedes and teaches that the seer stones, Joseph has several, were called the Urim and Thummin. If I had to guess I have showed you this 50 times?

The seer stone was called the U&T while Joseph was alive, that is how far back. Even Joseph called his single stone the U&T....

From LDS.org....

Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters.21


Ralf, until you are honest with your study, you should not accuse others of being lame in their claims, when you do not even know what your own church and prophets teach.

I will assume you will apologize to Bonnie?


 
You have not nor probably ever will do the proper research to make such a lame claim as above, I have go LOL at you naivety ..you lack any experience, wisdom or professional experience other then to quote someone else's theory or studies..hence your deep rooted gullibility.... chuckle.
Your comments are rude and shameful. Your behavior here every day is a display of negativity and unChristlike actions. You are an embarrassment to yourself and your church. I feel embarrassed for all the good, sincere mormons who are just trying to follow Christ, to have people like you representing their church in this way.
 
Your comments are rude and shameful. Your behavior here every day is a display of negativity and unChristlike actions. You are an embarrassment to yourself and your church. I feel embarrassed for all the good, sincere mormons who are just trying to follow Christ, to have people like you representing their church in this way.
I was close with mother, and we had many deep talks about Mormonism, a lot of tears together. She was as you said a sincere Mormon, trying to follow Christ the best she could, given what she was taught, she believed, period, even if her Jesus was not the Jesus we believe in. I really appreciate you saying that, it is so true, I know you get it.

And equally true is Ralf's lack of knowledge and acceptance of the realities that exist in the LDS truth claims. He knows it is a mess, he can't keep up, we can all see that....but I also understand why...he and his family is so invested into the mess, to him, turning back is not an option. He just needs to be strong, we will see.
 
Your comments are rude and shameful. Your behavior here every day is a display of negativity and unChristlike actions. You are an embarrassment to yourself and your church. I feel embarrassed for all the good, sincere mormons who are just trying to follow Christ, to have people like you representing their church in this way.

Yap... He's an excellent argument AGAINST Mormonism.
And the fact that no other Mormon calls him out is very telling.
 
What's absolutely ironic, , sad, and funny, or any other adjective you can chose, is that I just read that you were telling Bonnie she was naive and has not done proper research, when the facts are that The LDS church concedes and teaches that the seer stones, Joseph has several, were called the Urim and Thummin. If I had to guess I have showed you this 50 times?

The seer stone was called the U&T while Joseph was alive, that is how far back. Even Joseph called his single stone the U&T....

From LDS.org....

Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters.21

Ralf, until you are honest with your study, you should not accuse others of being lame in their claims, when you do not even know what your own church and prophets teach.

I will assume you will apologize to Bonnie?
bogus, find a actual quote Markk of it ever being used by JS or those who were his scribes as a UT seer stone... nice try.
 
Your comments are rude and shameful. Your behavior here every day is a display of negativity and unChristlike actions. You are an embarrassment to yourself and your church. I feel embarrassed for all the good, sincere mormons who are just trying to follow Christ, to have people like you representing their church in this way.
Yes, and your stories of your experience of once bing a mormon are way over the top, biased, ridiculous and magnified to the point of being unbelievable...
 
Yes, and your stories of your experience of once bing a mormon are way over the top, biased, ridiculous and magnified to the point of being unbelievable...
Doesn’t matter if you believe it or not. Your behavior here speaks for its own ignorance.
 
So does yours, you once were a mormon and now have to make up stories we all know are a stretch of you imagination...

So anything a Mormon missionary does that's negative, never happened, according to you?
Because 19-year-old missionaries have perfect maturity and perfect decision-making, according to you?

So you're going to deny that the mishies forcefully entered into Maggie's complex without permission, and we not kicked out by the manager? I find the account VERY easy to believe.

In fact, I just found a story on a blog called "Jennie's Journal", where an "Elder Rasband" told an account about being "led by the Spirit" to stick his foot in the doorway to prevent a potential investigator from closing the door on them. He BRAGS about this, "and now 136 people are members because of that 'foot'." And someone else (presumably "Jennie", since it is her blog) relates that they did the same thing. And she claims that God led her to do it.

Are these just lies? Do you expect us to believe that Maggie created an entire blog, just to support her experience?

Are you also going to deny the LDS missionary who got attacked by a lion becasue he decided to climb into the zoo enclosure and stick his arm through the opening? (I think this happened last year?)

Are you going to deny the LDS missionaries that were killed in a car crash in ND last week?
 
So anything a Mormon missionary does that's negative, never happened, according to you?
Because 19-year-old missionaries have perfect maturity and perfect decision-making, according to you?

You Just made my point by injecting another false story about me...


So you're going to deny that the mishies forcefully entered into Maggie's complex without permission, and we not kicked out by the manager? I find the account VERY easy to believe.

So you are proving my point, you take only one point in any discussion, there are never two point of view! Oh my folks

In fact, I just found a story on a blog called "Jennie's Journal", where an "Elder Rasband" told an account about being "led by the Spirit" to stick his foot in the doorway to prevent a potential investigator from closing the door on them. He BRAGS about this, "and now 136 people are members because of that 'foot'." And someone else (presumably "Jennie", since it is her blog) relates that they did the same thing. And she claims that God led her to do it.

I'm ever so glad that our Savior was also bold in preaching the gospel, if you and others were at the temple when Christ tuned over the tables of the money changers, well you would have called the police....lol....



Are these just lies? Do you expect us to believe that Maggie created an entire blog, just to support her experience?

Are you also going to deny the LDS missionary who got attacked by a lion becasue he decided to climb into the zoo enclosure and stick his arm through the opening? (I think this happened last year?)

Are you going to deny the LDS missionaries that were killed in a car crash in ND last week?
Your above is frivolous garbage, you are trying to make a point and failing miserably
 
bogus, find a actual quote Markk of it ever being used by JS or those who were his scribes as a UT seer stone... nice try.
I just gave you the quote from the church website. The prophets and apostle of the church endorsed and published this. Fair even states the same. Do some research ralf.

Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters.21

21. For example, when Joseph Smith showed a seer stone to Wilford Woodruff in late 1841, Woodruff recorded in his journal: “I had the privilege of seeing for the first time in my day the URIM & THUMMIM” (Wilford Woodruff journal, Dec. 27, 1841, Church History Library, Salt Lake City). See also Doctrine and Covenants 130:10.
 
I just gave you the quote from the church website. The prophets and apostle of the church endorsed and published this. Fair even states the same. Do some research ralf.

Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters.21

21. For example, when Joseph Smith showed a seer stone to Wilford Woodruff in late 1841, Woodruff recorded in his journal: “I had the privilege of seeing for the first time in my day the URIM & THUMMIM” (Wilford Woodruff journal, Dec. 27, 1841, Church History Library, Salt Lake City). See also Doctrine and Covenants 130:10.
Joseph Smith wrote: “I would inform you that I translated [the book], by the gift and power of God.” When pressed for specifics about the process of translation, Joseph repeated on several occasions that it had been done “by the gift and power of God” and once added, “It was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon.”


We still have not. been told Markk....

The principal scribe, Oliver Cowdery, testified under oath in 1831 that Joseph Smith “found with the plates, from which he translated his book, two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows. That by looking through these, he was able to read in English, the reformed Egyptian characters, which were engraved on the plates.” In the fall of 1830, Cowdery visited Union Village, Ohio, and spoke about the translation of the Book of Mormon. Soon thereafter, a village resident reported that the translation was accomplished by means of “two transparent stones in the form of spectacles thro which the translator looked on the engraving.”

Same source... not very reliable when accounts differ... chuckle.
 
So does yours, you once were a mormon and now have to make up stories we all know are a stretch of you imagination...
Prove Maggie is making up stories. Just because her experiences were different than yours does not mean she made them up. You just don't like that the stories are negative and make your church and its "missionaries" look bad.
 
Ralf, first of all large fonts, and different colored font does not erase the factual history I am presenting to you. All it does is make your assertions harder to read and understand. It does not help your case but shows desperation.

Joseph Smith wrote: “I would inform you that I translated [the book], by the gift and power of God.” When pressed for specifics about the process of translation, Joseph repeated on several occasions that it had been done “by the gift and power of God” and once added, “It was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon.”
Okay, how does that make the way he did it, as history relates, false? Or how does it erase what the current president of the church teaches, and what the other prophet, seers and revelators believe and endorse? Fact is, it doesn't.

Today it is an accepted truth that the seer stone was one of the ways the BoM was translated, and even part of the Book of Abraham. The same method and in some cases even the same seer stone Joseph used as a money digger.

In regard to what you wrote fine, we don't know all the particulars, but we do know about the seer stone, and how it was used. It is established history, and a LDS teaching.
 
Ralf, first of all large fonts, and different colored font does not erase the factual history I am presenting to you. All it does is make your assertions harder to read and understand. It does not help your case but shows desperation.


Okay, how does that make the way he did it, as history relates, false? Or how does it erase what the current president of the church teaches, and what the other prophet, seers and revelators believe and endorse? Fact is, it doesn't.

Today it is an accepted truth that the seer stone was one of the ways the BoM was translated, and even part of the Book of Abraham. The same method and in some cases even the same seer stone Joseph used as a money digger.

In regard to what you wrote fine, we don't know all the particulars, but we do know about the seer stone, and how it was used. It is established history, and a LDS teaching.
Chuckle, your assertions are factoids good buddy....I actually quote first hand accounts of the. two most witnesses to the translation process.... JS and Cowdery....if church leaders want to believe second and third hand accounts, whey would I care.
 
We still have not. been told Markk....

The principal scribe, Oliver Cowdery, testified under oath in 1831 that Joseph Smith “found with the plates, from which he translated his book, two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows. That by looking through these, he was able to read in English, the reformed Egyptian characters, which were engraved on the plates.” In the fall of 1830, Cowdery visited Union Village, Ohio, and spoke about the translation of the Book of Mormon. Soon thereafter, a village resident reported that the translation was accomplished by means of “two transparent stones in the form of spectacles thro which the translator looked on the engraving.”

Same source... not very reliable when accounts differ... chuckle.
He also "testified" and spoke to a lot of things, such as Joseph's relationship with Fanny Alger. So it is best to test what he and others stated.

However what you pasted above is from an article in a Evangelical magazine published in 1831. Here is the whole article.

MORMONITES.
Messrs. Editors—In the sixth number of your paper I saw a notice of a sect of people called Mormonites; and thinking that a fuller history of their founder, Joseph Smith, jr., might be interesting to community, and particularly to your correspondent in Ohio, where, perhaps, the truth concerning him may be hard to come at, I will take the trouble to make a few remarks on the character of that infamous impostor. For several years preceding the appearance of his book, he was about the country in the character of a glass-looker: pretending, by means of a certain stone, or glass, which he put in a hat, to be able to discover lost goods, hidden treasures, mines of gold and silver, &c. Although he constantly failed in his pretensions, still he had his dupes who put implicit confidence in all his words. In this town, a wealthy farmer, named Josiah Stowell, together with others, spent large sums of money in digging for hidden money, which this Smith pretended he could see, and told them where to dig; but they never found their treasure. At length the public, becoming wearied with the base imposition which he was palming upon the credulity of the ignorant, for the purpose of sponging his living from their earnings, had him arrested as a disorderly person, tried and condemned before a court or Justice. But, considering his youth, (he then being a minor,) and thinking he might reform his conduct, he was designedly allowed to escape. This was four or five years ago. From this time he absented himself from this place, returning only privately, and holding clandestine intercourse with his credulous dupes, for two or three years. It was during this time, and probably by the help of others more skilled in the ways of iniquity than himself, that he formed the blasphemous design of forging a new revelation, which, backed by the terrors on an endless hell, and the testimony of base unprincipled men, he hoped would frighten the ignorant, and open a field of speculation for the vicious, so that he might secure to himself the scandalous honor of being the founder of a new sect, which might rival, perhaps, the Wilkinsonians, or the French Prophets of the 17th century. During the past Summer he was frequently in this vicinity, and others of the baser sort, as Cowdry, Whitmer, etc., holding meetings, and proselyting a few weak and silly women, and still more silly men, whose minds are shrouded in a mist of ignorance which no ray can penetrate, and whose credulity the utmost absurdity cannot equal. In order to check the progress of delusion, and open the eyes and understandings of those who blindly followed him, and unmask the turpitude and villany of those who knowingly abetted him in his infamous designs; he was again arraigned before a bar of Justice, during last Summer, to answer to a charge of misdemeanor. This trial led to an investigation of his character and conduct, which clearly evinced to the unprejudiced, whence the spirit came which dictated his inspirations. During the trial it was shown that the Book of Mormon was brought to light by the same magic power by which he pretended to tell fortunes, discover hidden treasures, &c. Oliver Cowdry, one of the three witnesses to the book, testified under oath, that said Smith found with the plates, from which he translated his book, two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows. That by looking through these, he was able to read in English, the formed Egyptian characters, which were engraved on the plates. So much for the gift and power of God. by which Smith says he translate his book. Two transparent stones, undoubtedly of the same properties, and the gift of the same spirit as the one in which he looked to find his neighbor’s goods. It is reported, and probably true, that he commenced his juggling by stealing and hiding property belonging to his neighbors, and when inquiry was made, he would look in his stone, (his gift and power) and tell where it was. Josiah Stowell, a Mormonite, being sworn, testified that he positively knew that said Smith never had lied to, or deceived him, and did not believe he ever tried to deceive any body else. The following questions were then asked him, to which he made the replies annexed. Did Smith ever tell you there was money hid in a certain place which he mentioned? Yes. Did he tell you, you could find it by digging? Yes. Did you dig? Yes. Did you find any money? No. Did he not lie to you then, and deceive you? No! the money was there, but we did not get quite to it! How do you know it was there? Smith said it was! Addison Austin was next called upon, who testified, that at the very same time that Stowell was digging for money, he, Austin, was in company with said Smith alone, and asked him to tell him honestly whether he could see this money or not. Smith hesitated some time, but finally replied, “to be candid, between you and me, I cannot, any more than you or any body else; but any way to get a living.” Here, then, we have his own confession, that he was a vile, dishonest impostor. As regards the testimony of Josiah Stowell, it needs no comment. He swears positively that Smith did not lie to him. So much for a Mormon witness. Paramount to this, in truth and consistency, was the testimony of Joseph Knight, another Mormonite. Newel Knight, son of the former, and also a Mormonite, testified, under oath, that he positively had a devil cast out of himself by the instrumentality of Joseph Smith, jr., and that he saw the devil after it was out, but could not tell how it looked! Those who have joined them in this place, are, without exception, children who are frightened into the measure, or ignorant adults, whose love for the marvellous is equalled by nothing but their entire devotedness to the will of their leader; with a few who are as destitute of virtue and moral honesty, as they are of truth and consistency. As for his book, it is only the counterpart of his money-digging plan. Fearing the penalty of the law, and wishing still to amuse his followers, he fled for safety to the sanctuary of pretended religion.

Ralf, you pasted what you did without checking it out, and without following the reference note that points you here. You are being hood winked Ralf.
 
Chuckle, your assertions are factoids good buddy....I actually quote first hand accounts of the. two most witnesses to the translation process.... JS and Cowdery....if church leaders want to believe second and third hand accounts, whey would I care.
Ralf give the source for your "first hand account?"

One of the best first hand account is that of David Whitmire in his book, where he states clearly Joseph used a stone in his hat.
 
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