The Bride

[Buzzard]

I am going to this Thread on The Bride of Christ
hope fully we can keep it on subject

ramcam2 said:
there are many symbolism in who the woman is in rev 12.

but, your source is blind to the fact that the woman is to give birth to the child who will rule with an iron rod. Jesus is the child who will rule the world with an iron rod and Jesus was born of Mary, not eve, not israel, not the church. the biblical fact is that Jesus' mother Mary.

ramcam2 said:
the concept is there.
are you saying explicit words and phrases not in the bible should be excluded?

i would refer you to the writings of the early christians where the phrase 'new eve' or similar expressions can be found.
=========================== end Ram quote

Proverbs 6:34​

For jealousy is the rage of a man:​

therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.​

​

35 He will not regard any ransom;​

neither will he rest content,​

though thou givest many gifts.​

Ram says:
i would refer you to the writings of the early christians where the phrase 'new eve' or similar expressions can be found.
==============================================

well let me give you the final authority
P-A-U-L
1Cor.11:1
Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly:
and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
for I have espoused you to one husband,
that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Paul says

1Cor.6:2​

---------------The B-R-I-D-E-------------​

Do ye not know; that the saints shall judge the world?​

and if the world shall be judged by you,​

are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?​

​

3 Know ye not that we (The Bride) shall judge angels?​

how much more things that pertain to this life?​

(Ram):
Do ye not know; that the saints shall judge the world
and even the Angels
and they will rule with that Rod of Iorn

 

[balshan]

I am going to this Thread on The Bride of Christ
hope fully we can keep it on subject

ramcam2 said:
there are many symbolism in who the woman is in rev 12.

but, your source is blind to the fact that the woman is to give birth to the child who will rule with an iron rod. Jesus is the child who will rule the world with an iron rod and Jesus was born of Mary, not eve, not israel, not the church. the biblical fact is that Jesus' mother Mary.

ramcam2 said:
the concept is there.
are you saying explicit words and phrases not in the bible should be excluded?

i would refer you to the writings of the early christians where the phrase 'new eve' or similar expressions can be found.
=========================== end Ram quote

Proverbs 6:34​

For jealousy is the rage of a man:​

therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.​

​

35 He will not regard any ransom;​

neither will he rest content,​

though thou givest many gifts.​

Ram says:
i would refer you to the writings of the early christians where the phrase 'new eve' or similar expressions can be found.
==============================================

well let me give you the final authority
P-A-U-L
1Cor.11:1
Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly:
and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
for I have espoused you to one husband,
that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Paul says

1Cor.6:2​

---------------The B-R-I-D-E-------------​

Do ye not know; that the saints shall judge the world?​

and if the world shall be judged by you,​

are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?​

​

3 Know ye not that we (The Bride) shall judge angels?​

how much more things that pertain to this life?​

(Ram):
Do ye not know; that the saints shall judge the world
and even the Angels
and they will rule with that Rod of Iorn

Should be interesting. Love Ram on judging as the RC sees to hide sin and not judge its leaders at all.

There are scriptures which clearly explain who is the bride of Christ and it is not a what. This means it is not a denomination or the RCC. The RCC does not look anything at all like the real bride. It clearly does not meet the scriptural requirements for the bride.

For a start the bride is to be an example:

1 Tim 4:12
Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.

1Peter 2:16
Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.

The RCC covers up evil, it does not expose sin which is another sign of the bride.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

The bride is spotless, well we have all seen the bad fruit that the RCC produces.

eph 5:27
So that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

eph 5:

26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless

It is holy, clean, radiant, without stain, wrinkle, blemish, holy and blameless. That does not describe your institution and nothing about being infallible. Your institution is stained, wrinkled and blemished etc. If ignores what should be done to leaders as set down in 1 Cor 5:11.

Eph 2:20+

Built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit

Your institution is built on a foundation of wolves, false teachers and liars. The HS will never dwell where children are sexually assaulted.

Heb 10:24+

And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Yes we saw the love and good works and encouragement shown to the victims of your institution. They were treated like criminals and when they went to court they had no support from your institution.



So if the poster is trying to make out the RCC is the bride, they have a major problem. There are scriptural descriptions of the real bride and the RCC fails all those tests.

 

[Buzzard]

''

ramcam2 said:
The woman is no other than Mary. In Gal 4:4, St. Paul does not call the Mother of Christ by her own name, “Mary,” but calls her “woman”: God states that there is to be an enmity between the “woman” and the serpent, and this enmity is shared between her seed and its seed. Her seed is the Messiah, who stands in opposition to the seed of the serpent. The mother of the Messiah is said to share the same enmity, total opposition, with Satan.

and Ram says
In Gal 4:4, St. Paul does not call the Mother of Christ by her own name, “Mary,” but calls her “woman”
-----------------------------------End Ram post

Gal.4:4​

when the fulness of the time was come,​

God sent forth his Son,​

made of --- a ---- woman, made under the law,​

​

5 To redeem them that were under the law,​

that we might receive the adoption of sons.​

​

Ram;
Paul say ""A Woman""" not The woman

I marvel that ye are so soon removed​

from him that called you into the grace of Christ​

unto another gospel:​

​

7 Which is not another;​

but there be some that trouble you,​

and would pervert the gospel of Christ.​

​

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven,​

preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you,​

let him be accursed.​

​

9 As we said before, so say I now again,​

if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received,​

let him be accursed.​

​

but there be some that trouble you,​

and would pervert the gospel of Christ.​

when the fulness of the time was come,
God sent forth his Son,

Mk.1:14​

Now after that John was put in prison,​

Jesus came into Galilee,​

preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,​

​

when the fulness of the time was come,​

God sent forth his Son,​

15 And saying,​

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:​

repent ye, and believe the gospel.​

After the Temptations in the wilderness

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up:​

and, as his custom was,​

he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day,​

and stood up for to read​

​

Lk.4:17​

And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias.​

And when he had opened the book,​

he found the place where it was written,​

​

Paul says;​

when the fulness of the time was come,​

God sent forth his Son,​

tooo-------------​

To redeem them that were under the law,​

​

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,​

because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor;​

he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,​

to preach deliverance to the captives,​

and recovering of sight to the blind,​

to set at liberty them that are bruised,​

and​

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

​

Ram;
when Paul says
"when the fulness of the time was come,
God sent forth his Son,"
he wasn't refering to the birth of Christ

 

[Buzzard]

''
ramcam2 said:
Mary is understood as the “New Eve,” bearing the Redeemer of the world (Luke 1: 37), whereas the first Eve failed to trust and obey God:
============== end ram post
and where can we find that;
understood by who ???

as Peter says
"be always ready to give an answer"

Maybe you can try Luke;
'That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,
wherein thou hast been instructed."

ramcam2 said:
if the child spoken of in rev 12 is Jesus Christ, why can't you accept that the woman spoken of who gave birth to the child (jesus) is no other than Mary?

the other offsprings of the woman (mary) are the christians and christians constitute the church making mary the mother of the church.
====================end Ram post

I say you are wrong, dead wrong
and you are
"posting damnable heresies"
and the Child born to the woman in Rev. 12 are not the Children of Mary
nor is Mary the Mother of the Church
This Lady is

Gal.4:26
Jerusalem which is above is free,
which is the mother of us all.​

as Peter says
" Having a good conscience; that,
whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers,
(so Dat Dar Ole internet Babbler)
may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ."

 

[Buzzard]

Once again Posters
The Parables of Christ
And he spake many things unto them in parables,
saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell
by the way side,
and the fowls came and devoured them up:

And when he was alone,
they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

11 And he said unto them,
Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God:
but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

And he said unto them,
Know ye not this parable?
?
and how then will ye know all parables?

------------------------------------

The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:
there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall
the righteous shine forth as the sun
in the kingdom of their Father.

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus saith unto them,
Have ye understood all these things?
They say unto him,
Yea, Lord.

52 Then said he unto them,
Therefore
every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven
is like unto a man that is an householder,
which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:​

and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven:​

and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.​

The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:
there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall
the righteous shine forth as the sun
in the kingdom of their Father.

===========================================

Jn.3:1
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus,
a ruler of the Jews:

Jesus answered and said unto him
That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee,
Ye must be born again.

Nicodemus answered and said unto him,
How can these things be?
.....
Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen;
and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things,
and ye believe not,
how shall ye believe, if I tell you of
heavenly things?

Marvel not that I said unto thee,
Ye must be born again.
=====================================

Then shall
the righteous shine forth as the sun
in the kingdom of their Father.

Rev12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
a woman clothed with the sun,
and the moon under her feet,
and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

​

-----------heavenly things?-------------------​

Marvel not that I said unto thee,​

Ye must be born again.​

2 And she being with child cried,
travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

​

But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira,​

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end,​

to him will I give power over the nations:​

27 And he ​

(he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end,)​

shall rule them with a rod of iron;​

​

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
a woman clothed with the sun,

And she brought forth a man child,
who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
and her child was caught up unto God,
and to his throne.

Is.66:7

the woman, clothed with the sun,

Before she travailed, she brought forth;
before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing?
who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?
or shall a nation be born at once?
for as soon as Zion travailed,

But Jerusalem which is above is free,​

which is the mother of us all.​

..​

Marvel not that I said unto thee,
Ye must be born again.
I tell you of heavenly things?

​

Jerusalem which is above is free,​

which is the mother of us all.​

mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God,​

the heavenly Jerusalem,​

and to an innumerable company of angels,​

​

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,​

which are written in heaven,​

and to God the Judge of all,​

and to the spirits of just men made perfect,​

​

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,​

and to the blood of sprinkling,​

that speaketh better things than that of Abel.​

​

mount Sion,
Jerusalem which is above , the mother of us all.
gives birth to her children
ie:
Marvel not that I said unto thee,
Ye must be born again.

9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth?
saith the Lord:
shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb?
saith thy God.

​

 

[Buzzard]

]]
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus,
a ruler of the Jews:
..
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof,
but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:
so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Ecc.11:5
As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit,
nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child:
even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.​

Jesus answered and said unto him,
Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Marvel not that I said unto thee,
Ye must be born again.
I tell you of heavenly things?


Is.66:7
------the woman, clothed with the sun,----

Before she travailed, she brought forth;
before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing?
who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?
or shall a nation be born at once?
for as soon as Zion travailed,

 

[1Thess521]

I am going to this Thread on The Bride of Christ
hope fully we can keep it on subject

ramcam2 said:
there are many symbolism in who the woman is in rev 12.

but, your source is blind to the fact that the woman is to give birth to the child who will rule with an iron rod. Jesus is the child who will rule the world with an iron rod and Jesus was born of Mary, not eve, not israel, not the church. the biblical fact is that Jesus' mother Mary.

@ramcam2 seems confused


As Haydock writes re: the woman in Rev 12
A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ, shining with the light of faith, under the protection of the sun of justice, Jesus Christ. The moon, the Church, hath all changeable things of this world under her feet, the affections of the faithful being raised above them all. --- A woman: the Church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady [the Virgin Mary]. "

a possible allusion is not a proof text

 

[Buzzard]

1Thess521 said:
As Haydock writes re: the woman in Rev 12
A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ, shining with the light of faith, under the protection of the sun of justice, Jesus Christ. The moon, the Church, hath all changeable things of this world under her feet, the affections of the faithful being raised above them all. --- A woman: the Church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady [the Virgin Mary]. "

a possible allusion is not a proof text
==============end thess postThess;

Thess
we have our 2 "Faithful" Witnesses

​

Isaiah 66:7​

Before she travailed, she brought forth;​

before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.​

​

8 Who hath heard such a thing?​

who hath seen such things?​

Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?​

or shall a nation be born at once?​

for as soon as Zion travailed,​

..​

And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites,​

saith the Lord.​

​

the words of Christ in the Parables​

The Son of man shall send forth his angels,​

and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,​

and them which do iniquity​

​

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.​

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

as Paul affirms
"Jerusalem which is above is free,
which is the mother of us all.'
=============================

Before she travailed, she brought forth;
before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Who hath heard such a thing?
who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?
or shall a nation be born at once?
And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites,
and they shall rule all Nations with that Rod of Iorn

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan,​

which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie;​

behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet,​

and to know that I have loved thee.​

..
For as the new heavens and the new earth,
which I will make, shall remain before me,
saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass,
that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another,
shall all flesh come to worship before me,
saith the Lord.

 

[ramcam2]

1Thess521 said:
As Haydock writes re: the woman in Rev 12
A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ, shining with the light of faith, under the protection of the sun of justice, Jesus Christ. The moon, the Church, hath all changeable things of this world under her feet, the affections of the faithful being raised above them all. --- A woman: the Church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady [the Virgin Mary]. "

a possible allusion is not a proof text
==============end thess postThess;

Thess
we have our 2 "Faithful" Witnesses

​

Isaiah 66:7​

Before she travailed, she brought forth;​

before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.​

​

8 Who hath heard such a thing?​

who hath seen such things?​

Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?​

or shall a nation be born at once?​

for as soon as Zion travailed,​

..​

And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites,​

saith the Lord.​

​

the words of Christ in the Parables​

The Son of man shall send forth his angels,​

and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,​

and them which do iniquity​

​

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.​

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

as Paul affirms
"Jerusalem which is above is free,
which is the mother of us all.'
=============================

Before she travailed, she brought forth;
before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Who hath heard such a thing?
who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?
or shall a nation be born at once?
And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites,
and they shall rule all Nations with that Rod of Iorn

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan,​

which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie;​

behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet,​

and to know that I have loved thee.​

..
For as the new heavens and the new earth,
which I will make, shall remain before me,
saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass,
that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another,
shall all flesh come to worship before me,
saith the Lord.

no problem with that.
an allusion is an indirect reference and nothing is said that it is incorrect or not real.
these are polyvalent meanings of who the woman is... Israel, eve, the church, mary.
but one has to be prepared to go further that the woman is a fitting symbol of mary because she the mother of God.

 

[balshan]

no problem with that.
an allusion is an indirect reference and nothing is said that it is incorrect or not real.
these are polyvalent meanings of who the woman is... Israel, eve, the church, mary.
but one has to be prepared to go further that the woman is a fitting symbol of mary because she the mother of God.

Well then go further...

 

[ReverendRV]

The Bride ~ by ReverendRV * December 14

Hebrews 10:25 NIV; not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

This Gospel Tract is for the ‘Unchurched-Church’. When we read a Verse like the one above, you should expect a Christian to invite you back to Church; even expect them to compel you. The Day being spoken of is the Last Day; and it is approaching! There IS a group of unreached people, and it may shock the Christian to realize this, but they're people who were raised in Church but got old enough to choose to stop attending. ~ One prominent thing we used to hear from people was "do not Judge lest you likewise be judged"; now what we hear most is that "You don’t have to go to Church to be a Christian". It's not easy to answer a Verse which tells the Christian to not Judge; though there is a book in the Bible titled ‘Judges’. It’s also not easy to answer someone when they say they don’t have to go to Church to be Saved; because they are right. ~ Perhaps this admission is enough to cause you to relax; and listen. You ask, “Why then do you feel that you have to write a Gospel Tract to the Unchurched Church?”

There are a few reasons. First, the Bible says we know we’ve passed from death to Life because we Love the brethren; anyone who doesn’t Love remains in death. People tell me it’s Bible thumping Christians that turn them off and are starting to make them Hate Church; but shouldn’t you expect us to be into our Bibles? Okay; can I have your opinion on something? When I was a child I got ‘Saved’ at AWANA’s, but after I grew up I decided to stop going to Church. I sang the song “Shout! Shout! Shout at the Devil!” and did drugs. Long story short, around the age of 37 I got ‘Saved’. Here’s the question; at which time in my life did I get Saved? ~ I wouldn't risk my Soul by betting on which day I was Saved, but the Bible leads me to believe I was Saved later; after I truly understood my Sin. Have you ever accepted Christ as your Savior, but never go to Church because of 'those hypocrites'? The Bible tells us the Church is the Bride of Christ; if you are Saved, you are his Bride. The Scriptures ask us, ‘What person doesn’t love and care for themselves?’ If you are the Bride of Christ and I’m also the Bride of Christ; how can you almost start to Hate ME? What Bride could ever hate herself?? ~ Learn this; the Church and the Bride are synonymous…

Perhaps you went to a Church that didn't preach the Law and the Gospel? Lying, Stealing, Adultery and Hatred are Sins, to name a few; and Sinners go to Hell for all eternity. But we are Saved by the Grace of God, through Faith in Jesus Christ as our Risen ‘Lord’ and Savior; apart from any good deeds we could do to earn this. ~ If you only listen to one thing I say, hear this; The Bible says that those who left ‘us’ (the Church) were never of 'us' (the Bride). This should send chills down your spine! What if you were like I was and not Saved when I quit? You’ve stopped going to Church and live like Hell; we are known by our fruit. ~ Jesus Christ is our first Love; but that means we have a Second Love; right? Come back home…

2nd Corinthians 13:5 NIV; Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

 

[Arch Stanton]

The Bride ~ by ReverendRV * December 14

.........................

2nd Corinthians 13:5 NIV; Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

Jn 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you DO NOT HAVE LIFE within you.

 

[A new day]

Jn 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you DO NOT HAVE LIFE within you.

How did that work out for travis clark?

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/252888/louisiana-ex-priest-pleads-guilty-to-filming-pornographic-material-on-parish-altar

 

[Arch Stanton]

How did that work out

not an Inn for Saints, a hospital for sinners

 

[balshan]

How did that work out for travis clark?

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/252888/louisiana-ex-priest-pleads-guilty-to-filming-pornographic-material-on-parish-altar

Has he been laicized.

 

[balshan]

not an Inn for Saints, a hospital for sinners

But they are meant to be healed and your leaders stay sick in most cases. Because even if not part of the original sin by their not exposing the sin they are become part of the sin. This is something RCs just ignore.

 

[A new day]

unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you DO NOT HAVE LIFE within you.

not an Inn for Saints, a hospital for sinners

Poor excuse for a priest, who is above the laity, and someone that is in a position to know better

 

[A new day]

Has he been laicized.

I KNOW! not my point

 

[Arch Stanton]

Poor excuse for a priest, who is above the laity, and someone that is in a position to know better

You should know better. We could be here all day talking about bad 'pastors' ?

 

[A new day]

You should know better. We could be here all day talking about bad 'pastors' ?

unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you DO NOT HAVE LIFE within you.

Your the one who emphasized the above. Your also the one who emphasized the following when you quoted ReverendRV in post #12

Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-

travis clark is NOT a spring chick, he is old enough to have many many servings of eucharist wafers.

There is the claim by rc's that the wafers cause rc's to take on Gods essense and being. Yes I know you didn't type that specifically. But that is what the rcc teaches. Under that circumstance, it didn't help travis clark much did it?